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In further response to Mike and Tim:

http://www.agriculture.state.pa.us/doglawa...=3&q=149327

Quote:

MYTH: There would be no problems if the Department of Agriculture just increased enforcement of existing law.

REALITY: Over the past year the Department has stepped up its enforcement of existing law, but no amount of enforcement can make up for what the law lacks. The problem with existing law is that it is LEGAL to keep kenneled dogs in small, stacked cages for their entire life with no heat, no opportunity for exercise and no routine veterinary care. House Bill 2525 would, for the first time, improve the minimum standards for commercial breeding kennels.


MYTH: The real goal of HB 2525 is to discourage people from breeding or hunting with dogs by saddling them with additional requirements.

REALITY: Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Department of Agriculture is proud of Pennsylvania’s many award-winning sporting dog and show dog kennels. The law defines commercial breeding kennels as kennels that either sell dogs to dealers or pet stores, or sell more than 60 dogs a year, which these types of breeders have told the Department they would never do. By not meeting the definition of a commercial breeding kennel, sporting and hobby dog kennels are not affected by the new size and exercise requirements.

MYTH: The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) requirements for kennels are good enough â€â€œ Pennsylvania should just adopt them.

REALITY: USDA has some good standards, and in fact, House Bill 2525 includes many of them for commercial kennels, such as a temperature range of 50-85 degrees and requiring veterinary care. But USDA does not go far enough to provide dogs with humane living conditions, for example:

USDA requires that dogs get twice the current Pennsylvania cage size or get exercise. But the exercise requirement can be satisfied by placing a dog in a cage with a second dog (without either dog getting more space than if alone) - in practice no different than current Pennsylvania law.

USDA allows wire flooring, stacking of cages for adult dogs regardless of size, and up to 12 adult dogs to be housed together. Dog professionals the Department consulted said that many dogs would encourage fights.


MYTH: House Bill 2525 will impose many new requirements for kennels of all sizes and types.

REALITY: House Bill 2525 will only require three new improvements for any kennel other than commercial breeding kennels: Get fire extinguishers, have an exercise plan approved by their own veterinarian, and display their kennel licenses in their kennel.

MYTH: Field trials and dog shows will have to get kennel licenses under House Bill 2525.

REALITY: House Bill 2525 now specifically states that gatherings of dogs in the care of their owners do not require kennel licenses.



And to quote from my last post in response to Mike on the previous thread:

"The change in culture was not some sort of spontaneous occurance- it came about because of the hard work to educate the public by supporters of the new dog law and the anti-puppymill movement.

As far as what passed for "OK" and legal in the housing of dogs prior to Oct. 2008:

Would you stick Macey in a tiny wire floored cage for the rest of her life-feet never to touch the ground again, balancing on the wires cutting into her pads, never excercised,no vet exams - stacked in a cage so that urine and feces rained down on her daily? Would it be OK with you if she sweltered in a 100 degree shed for days on end and froze in the winter when it got below zero? I don't think so.

So why do you think all of the above is OK for the thousands of dogs in the puppymills in Pennsylvania?"
 

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Thanks - as always![/b]

Let us not forget the source of the "Myth" information is from those that wrote the law the same people who refused to meet with sportsman and other partyies that where intial highly impacted by the law. Through great diligence on these organization part was the law ammended to take into there concern of wihich are addres in the myth The gathering of people for event except from kennel laws which was not true of the original legeslation along with it not effecting ever kennel including non commercial


The big question is whether the current federal standard for housing are inhuman. Funny how no ther states find that to be the case. As for the debate over wire open bottom crates vs solid bottom crates there are many if not a majorty of animal health care official that believe that Open bottom crates are more sanitary and provide better living condition for dogs. It is in no small part the infexibility of the PA dept of Ag on this provision and others that led lawmakers to scuttle many of the provision in the law regarding evironmental conditions heating, air conditioning, ventilation and crate bottoms services and for a committee of health official to design new standard. The strandard sought by the Dept of Ag far exceed the standard of OSHA for humans.

What you have is a Deptment the for many years neglected to enforce the laws it had on the book and to deflect critisim called for new and often ornerious and unconstitional (in the regard to kennel searches ) provisions . Set up so called open meetings to discuss the proposed legilation but diliberate mislead critics as to the time and occurance of such meeting. Any one that takes a serious look at the action of the DEP of Ag in regard to promoting this legislation seriously has to question the claims of motivation and objective of it.

I am sorry to say on can not take at face value what the Dept of Ag has to say on the legislation and yes the PA Dog Law Action is 100% supported by the Dept of Ag.

Would you stick Macey in a tiny wire floored cage for the rest of her life-feet never to touch the ground again, balancing on the wires cutting into her pads, never excercised,no vet exams - stacked in a cage so that urine and feces rained down on her daily?[/b]
Interesting what you describe is actionable under the old Standards Stack cages require a collecting device for urine and feeces to prevent urine and feeces "raining down" on dogs below. Open botton Grate are healthier increase air circulation minimize contact with pathogens etc. Yest ther have been issolated cases were inappropriate mesh size and material have cause damage to dogs paws but if true conern could be address with regulating just this aspect rather than making a PR ploy of outlaying wire floors altogether. I do own wire floored crates and they happen to be the dogs favoirite in hot weather. Finally the temperature extremes you mention given adequite supply of food and water most breeds of dog can tolerate quite well. However they are outside the range of the Current USDA standard would be actionable under the old regulations.


But one mus seriouly question why standard for commercial kennels need to be so much higher than that for any other kennel inorder not to be inhumane? Why commerial breeders are targeted but pet selling stores are exempt. It is quite simply more about PR than it is about need. It is much more "convient" for the Dept to clain their lack of action in the past is because of the lack of tools when nothing could be further from the truth it was casued by a lack of will. The same goes for the change in culture. It has nothing to do with outhside influence and everything to do with changes internally.
 

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murraysmom, I'm with you.

Besides, the exception does not prove the rule. There are always exceptions, and always anecdotal evidence of how something does not work. Mistakes are always made, and the goal is to correct them.

But it's like the foster care system or DHS or CPS or similar. Despite being overwhelmed by cases, so many that they simply can't accomodate them all, and despite making horribly tragic decisions at time, these agencies work to the benefit of children.

And no amount of Grover Norquist style "drowning government in the bathtub" rhetoric can deny that.

If the measure of a society is how it cares for its most defenceless, and if we, as dog-lovers, understand that modern dogs are a consequence of millenia of interference and selective breeding and etc. by us, which has led to them requiring us to survive as *dogs*, then we have no choice as a civil society but to accept our responsibility for their care. Measures such as these are a small step in the right direction.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the support biscuit, and Elvismom- sometimes, for whatever reason, the silence on this board has been deafening on this topic.

And Mike, thanks for your unemotional and well-argued response above, which, of course, I take issue with point by point!!( :rolleyes: )

I stand by what I've posted over the past year, and am sure you will continue to stand by what you believe on this subject.

I think this on-going debate has allowed anyone reading it to understand both sides of this hot-button issue. I've been posting information for that reason, and hope we can all keep it on this level without anger, and maintain respect for others with opposing views.
 

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Mary, as you know we are trying very hard to get legistlation passed in NM to prevent these issues from becoming a problem for our state. We curretnly do not have a probelm with mills or commercial breeders (yes, there is a definite distinction) and hope to keep it that way. I hope we can learn from states that are dealng with these problems - but there is such a lack of eduction in the general public, the legislators and people who run the shelters etc. that at times it seems like an overwhelming task. People in our state honestly believe that if they take their dogs to the local "shelter" that they will find a good home and live a long and happy life. Their life span is often not much longer than the time it takes to gas them.

Despite the lack of millers etc in our state I have seen the facilities in other states that get rave reveiws from the Ag Dept. Given the number of dogs in many of these kennels I firmly believe that the laws must be stricter - and enforced - so that these animals have some type of life beyond popping out puppies. I've heard the arguments for the mesh floors - and have seen the "new & improved" mesh floors that have apparently been approved by the dept and I can say that I would NOT want to live on it. To me it is done so that they don't have to worry about cleaning out kennels and getting the dogs out of their cages for any meaningful amount of time. I don't know if the PA law addresses the issue of age - but at the auction I went to the auctioneer was getting the crowd excited by saying the toy poodles on the acution block can be bred til they are 13! I find this despicable.

The laws are needed - but more important is consumer awareness. Most people do not want laws that will inhibit good breeders, sports dogs or show dogs. We want the horrors of mills & commercial breeders to become a sad chapter in our history.
 

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The laws are needed - but more important is consumer awareness. Most people do not want laws that will inhibit good breeders, sports dogs or show dogs. We want the horrors of mills & commercial breeders to become a sad chapter in our history.[/b]
That can never heappen through legislation. The reason they exist is simiple, they are needed. There simply are not enough quality, responsible breeders to meet the demand for dogs. Legistlation that mkaes it more difficult or is percieved to make it more difficult to breed does not help the situation. it makes it worse.


What legislation is capable of is minimium human standard. But what is wrong is arbitrarily appling human standard across the board from commercial kennel owner, non comercial kennel owner, pet store and general public. If a regulation is to ornerious for the general public to meet that cast serious doubt on the merits of the legislation purpose of ensuring humane conditions. Any thing else is antibreeding legislation. Fancy that such regulations are general crafted and draw vast finacial and political lobbing support from special interest groups who's heads support and stratagize to move toward a ban on domestic breeding of all animals.


While it is always dangerious to make cross animal generalizations I will do so. I raise rabbit for year for both pets and food. An open botton cage design is not merely for convienience it is much more health for them. An open bottom design in addition to being cleaner and more sanitary does not eliminate the need for daily or more often cleanings. It also increase air flow which is critical to minimize resipatory infections. which rabbit are highly suceptable. A proorly designed floor can create problem just like anthing else that is poorly done. However a correctly designed floor is safe on the feet , more confortable than solid bottom flooring and healthier.

With any legislation once be vigilent against the unitended consequences which in my experience out number the good most of the time.

Michael Tefts.
 

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I'm a firm beleiver in the law of unintended consequences. It has bitten me more than once.

I wonder how many fewer animals would be killed each year if the millers went out of business and people went to their local shelter etc to get a pet. And, no, I don't think that by running the abusers out of business that we will reach a point when there are more people looking for dogs than there are dogs available.

The PA laws and to a lesser extent legislation in OK has really been good PR for getting the general public to be aware of millers etc. I can't begin to tell you how many people I've talked to are completely ignorant of mills, auctions etc. The word to needs to be spread and getting a congressperson to sponsor legislation is a great way to do it.

We all know that laws can be ridiculous. There is a city councilor here in Alb. who wants to legistlate the # of toys that each pet must have. In my house you'd have to add in magazines and paperbacks because that's a favorite chew toy. I doubt that was what she had in mind. Of course we all had fun with the idea of "toy police" coming to our respective houses. However, the law also had some excellent things in it that got overlooked. But - it DID get people thinking about how to help protect animals.

I've never raised rabbits, so I can't comment on the wire cage issue. I do know some of the places I've seen use the wire cages as an excuse NOT to do cleaning. Of course when the animals get sick from the filth they are merely disposed of. ONly dogs.....

Sadly unethical breeders and millers will use the loopholes in any bill to keep from creating a humane living place for the "stock".
 
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