[Guest]

The Gentle Leader ...well, she reacted like a Bass on a hook! I got it on her ok and then she freaked and started flipping around so badly that I could hardly hold her to remove it. That one is going straight back to Petsmart. It caused real trauma ...she was scared.

I TRIED to put the new Sporn thingy on her later on and it was just not happening tonight. We'll try that again another time when I understand the instructions better. She was cautious but not freaked out.

It was something about the snout harness part of the leader that upset her. I might exchange it for the Walker version.

We walked with the regular collar, trying to let the leash be slack if possible. She is so fast that I can barely keep up. I am RUNNING to keep up! And this is a dog that one year ago didn't have the use of her back legs. She's making up for lost time.

 

[Mikey T]

I TRIED to put the new Sporn thingy on her later on and it was just not happening tonight. We'll try that again another time when I understand the instructions better. She was cautious but not freaked out.

Yea it can be a bit confusing at first but once you get it it is quite easy to but on. Also the collar part can remain on all the time.


just some thought on how I do it.

1. I don't use the fabric Sherpa Sleeves I do not find then necessary and they just complicate putting the harness on.

2. Make sure the collar is oriented propperly. There are four D rings on the collar. Two large ones close to each other and two smaller ones about 180 from the larger rings and spaced apart.
Be sure the large rings are center about the shoulder area and the small rings a center about the chest.

3. Take the two larger D rings at the back and flatten against the collar one to the right and the other to the left.

4. Take the cord with the, thread one of the clips thought A Large d ring by starting between the two d ring an thread to the outside. Do the same with the other clip but through the opposite side ring.

5. Take the cord and clip threaded through the Right side ring pass under the right front leg and clip to the small ring on the right side of the collar. Do the same for the left side

6. Adjust the tension on the cord with the push button stop. After the first few minute expect to readjust (make tighter) once the cords settle in place.

sounds a lot harder than it is. Just follow the pictures. Also it is easier to practice on a stuffed amimal rather than a squirmy live one at first ;0

On the agilitylist their is an on going discussion about the Gentle Leader walker vs the sense-ible harness and the consenus is the sense-ible harness fits better and does not restrict stride which can happen with the gentle leader verision making it a better choice.

Clean run did extensive testing on a large variety of dogs to decide which one to sell.

 

[Guest]

Yes, I do need to practice on something other than Dixie first. As soon as she sees me pick up the leash or collar or anything of that material, she's ready to go. It was a joke trying to get this thing on her. I'll try it again, after I find something to practice on.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[Milly and Lily]

If she runs ahead of you when out for a walk. Stop. the walk does not continue until she returns back to you. This might take a couple of nights of walks but she will get the point. She is trying to be the leader and needs to understand that is your job. You are leading this walk/hunt and you say what direction it is to go and how fast or slow. It takes patience though so hang in there.

 

[Guest]

I did this with Belly but he was not as determined. He was bigger ...and very strong ...and I though HE was pretty stubborn. But this little girl really does want to be the boss. She has to be first at everything.

I'll keep working on it. I have a friend who is going to loan me a regular harness to try out. I doubt it will make her stop this foolishness but at least I won't be hurting her neck area. I have the patience for the training but I don't want to pay for trachea surgery downt he line.

Thanks for the tip. We'll try that with the harness. And someone else suggested that I take her for walks alone for a while, so that she won't be trying so hard to get ahead of my husband, who has Belly's leash.

 

[Mikey T]

She is trying to be the leader and needs to understand that is your job.

Complete and total B.S. This whole concept that some poor obnoxious behaviors lead to "dominence is just nonsence.

Try read these articles
The Macho Myth

The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

Debunking the Dominance Myth
"So-called dominance exercises were — and in some circles still are — widely recommended to
prevent the dog from taking over the entire household. These exercises include not feeding him
until after you’ve eaten, letting him through doorways only after you, forbidding access to
furniture, and not playing tug-of-war.
In reality, there is no evidence that these procedures prevent dominance aggression or any other
behavioral problem. In fact, one study found no correlation between playing tug-of-war or
allowing a dog on the bed and the development of aggressive behavior."

The Myth of Alpha
The Myth of Alpha PART 2

Dominance Paradigm in Training Dogs
"The dominance paradigm assumes that a socially repressed dog will be an “obedient” dog. Dogs learn by exploring their environment and repeating behaviors that are rewarding to them. Good trainers manage their dogs to prevent them from practicing unwanted behavior and to reward behavior that they want to foster. They do not attempt to suppress behavior through intimidation or force.
...Working with a dog using the dominance paradigm sets up the owner and the dog for a confrontational rather than cooperative relationship. Good trainers don’t let themselves get into “power struggles” with their dogs"

DOMINANCE: FACT OR FICTION?
"we need to open our minds and consider that perhaps there is an alternative view to the pack hierarchy rules and that dogs are not really plotting to overthrow mankind! "


What you are describing in not dominance at all but a lack of self control.


TEACHING SELF CONTROL
"Just as children must learn to control their impulses before they can mature into responsible adults, dogs must learn self control before they can become well mannered canine citizens. Self control must be taught, just as you teach him to sit or speak or come when called. "

another intersting article in the same vane as dogs do what works.\
Why Not Take Candy from a Baby (If He Lets You?)
"Examines manipulation as part of social life, and the dog's need for clear boundaries & leadership."

[ February 23, 2006, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Mikey T ]

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Mikey T:
Complete and total B.S.  

No offense Mikey, because I feel that you honestly want the best for everyone here and their furbabies, and that you are definately one of the forefront people on this board when it comes to having great ideas or advice. However, I think that remark was a bit harsh. She was only giving her opinion and her thoughts on the matter. We all want to give information that will be helpful to one another, however, I think it should be done in a constructive/postive manner.

 

[Milly and Lily]

I respectfully submit that I did not use the word dominance anywhere in my statement. I think that is a different matter than a dog forging when on a walk.
But thank you for the links.

 

[Betsy Iole]

Speaking of complete and total BS, my opinion is that using either a harness or a head halter on a dog, outside of very specific situations, constitutes complete and total BS. :roll: I don't understand the resistance to just training the dog to walk nicely on a simple collar and a leash.

 

[Mikey T]

However, I think that remark was a bit harsh. She was only giving her opinion and her thoughts on the matter.

If some were to suggest holding a dogs head under water as punishment as a mild an appropriate punishment what would be an appropriate response.
It could work but it does have some risks?

1. I don't see the original statement as stating an opinion but as a statement of fact. As a statement of fact current scientific knowledge proves it in error.

2. while many may see it as a begnin comment, it is not. The Anthropomorphic (giving human characteristics and emotions to nonhuman objects) Owners are a real threat to dogs. Thousand of dog each are euthanised because of the behavior problems created by it. Ians Dumbars
Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog? by Ian Dunbar beautifully ilustrates the
point. excerpt "Dogs need a leader who will first teach and then, enforce the domestic rules. Perhaps 'educator' is a better term. Dogs are dogs; they are neither human nor lupine, so why don't we just treat them like dogs - to try to understand and respect their doggy ways at the same time as teaching them to understand and respect ours. Furthermore, we are human; we are neither lupine or canine, so why don't we act like the intelligent folk we are meant to be and teach dogs what is expected? If we want dogs to like people, let's socialize them. If we want dogs to have soft mouths, let's teach bite inhibition. If we don't want dogs to mouth or jump up, let's teach "Off" and "Sit". And if we want dogs to adhere to house rules, let's teach them. "

3. I attacked the idea not the person. I'm sure Milissa is a wonderful person. She was just repeating what I'm sure she has be told many times over by various trainers she has worked with. It is like the old adage Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. The Dominance Myth is pervasive in dog training. I would venture to say it is still the dominate (most common) theory practiced in dog training. Does not make it correct.

4. I carefully an purposely avoided any connection with dominance theory and the actual behavioral advice given, "be a tree" which has worked for easily millions of dogs. It just that the reason it works has nothing to do with dominance.

5. I do not see what I said as harsh, but then again many view reality as harsh. It clearly was not my intent which was to be truthful. If someone can infer a "harshness in the words then I was not as effective as I should have been in comunicating. That I will appoligize for.

 

[Guest]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mikey T for showing me and all of us here an alternative viewpoint on the "dominance theory." As you said, just because it is a common practice, does not make it an effective or appropriate one. I was unaware until I came to this forum that it was a common misconception, and in no way argue that. In fact, I'm glad this information was brought to my attention. So thank you again.

Different perspectives help shed light on an issue, and I think they are important here...plus they keep things lively and interesting on this forum!

Please believe that I meant no disrespect to you in my previous comment, by any means. It's just MY opinion (and you know what they say about opinions...ha ha) that many people, like myself, on this forum see their dogs as their children. And maybe thats wrong of us. Maybe they should be seen just as dogs. However, my point is that I would never comment on anyone's childrearing beliefs as "B.S." Once again..just my opinion.

But, anyway, please keep the helpful insights coming. Your opinion and advice is truly valued here.

So, my only question to you is....can u please post a pic of your basset? I'm new and I would love to see a picture!

Thanks,

 

[Guest]

I just want to prevent damage to the trachea. My vet said that it's a delicate area and dogs that pull hard can end up needing surgery or worse. I would be using a halter (or whatever) to avoid this.

This little baby didn't have use of her back legs for a long time. She was rehabilitated over the past year and she's making up for lost time. The moment that leash goes on, she is running like the wind. She's very well trained otherwise.

For us, it's a more complex issue than just her being disobedient. She simply wants to RUN...and unfortunately, I didn't train for this prior to her arrival. I'm going to do what I can to protect her and hope that eventually she will realize that "Walkies" come every night and there is no need to rush them. And I might lose a few pounds in the mean time!

 

[Betsy Iole]

Originally posted by Faye:
I would be using a halter (or whatever) to avoid this.

Training would also prevent this.

 

[Guest]

Training takes TIME ...we are talking about just DAYS here. She has been here for one week exactly. This is a specific situation. I'm looking for a QUICK FIX ...*WHILE* she is being trained. We are training every single time we walk.

It's probably time to let this particular post go on down the list.

 

[Betsy Iole]

Now I really don't understand...how can she being trained to a collar and leash, *WHILE* she's being walked on the harness/head halter?

You made a comment about her being disobedient earlier...she can't be "disobedient", when she hasn't been trained to understand the expected behavior. Training isn't about obedience as much as it's about communication.

 

[Guest]

I have a question for you ...What is your idea of training? Proper training? How do *you* do it?

Is there a particular method or book that you highly recommend? Do you have a method that you've created yourself? I'm open to suggestions. This thread really hasn't gone in the direction that I'd hoped so help me to ask the right questions. How's this:

What do I need to do to train my 8 year old, recently rehabilitated Basset Hound to walk on a leash and collar properly? I would like a good method or a link to a website that will guide me through this in a positive way. Even a book.

Any advice you have to offer is greatly appreciated.

 

[Mikey T]

"What do I need to do to train my 8 year old, recently rehabilitated Basset Hound to walk on a leash and collar properly? I would like a good method or a link to a website that will guide me through this in a positive way. Even a book."

Personally I do not think you will find success in a book or a web site. You will be much better off investing that time and money in a class or with a private instructor. So much miscommunication and misinterprtation goes on through the spoken word especial in dog training. See and watching how someone else does it is much more efficient.

Just some caveats observe a class first before putting any hard cash. See how the instructs and interacts with the dogs and humans. What methods are used. Are you comfortable with the instructors style and methods?, if not move on. There are as many ways to train a dog as there are instructors. A good instructor will tell you they have to adjust their methodology to each individual dog also, There is no one right way or wrong way.

Unfortunately when you ask for advice you often get conflicting answers which only serves to confuse. It is also likely that either of the conflicting answers would work equally as well but if you try and take a bit from one and mix it with a bit from another it begins to fall apart.

I can not over emphysis IMHO the importance of having a hands on instructor to guide you especial for first time training. and even for us old hacks having an observer willing to make comment on technique keeps us from falling back to unproductive habits.

As an example I will give you links to a Clicker training site with advice on the subject. You will see even though the same tools are used they are used slightly differently by different individuals. Does not make one method better than the other. Some work better for some human and dog combinations than others.

In the end, I find it is more about commitment than methodology. If you don't commit to a method and dillengently practice it, no result with occur. If you do commit regardless of the methodology result usually follow. Commitment, consistence, and patience are key.

Targeting and Loose Leash Walking

Loose Leash Walking

Advice for Loose Leash Walking

An "AHA" Moment in Loose Leash Walking

"My Dog is Pulling My Arm Off!!"

Loose Leash Walking: The Total Picture

The Musher's Cure for Pulling

Walking on a Loose Leash

"Be a Tree" Explained

Tips for Better Loose Leash Walking

You Get What You Reinforce, Not What You (Necessarily) Want
"If the dog is doing lots of things in a complex environment, then why should a loose leash be so salient, as compared to, maybe, stepping over a crack in the pavement, or another dog appearing ahead, or the fact that the dog happened to turn its head to the right just at the time of the click. If the clicker happened repeatedly when the dog was in the process of speeding up the pace, yet the leash was still loose, why should the dog not think that it was speeding up that gained the click rather than the loose leash? Because the leash has a certain length, it could be that the dog could really build up some speed before the leash was drawn tight, thus non-reinforced. I know, I know, the dog should figure this out, and, eventually, the dog will. However, the more intense the distractions, the more complex the behaviors, and the less perceptive the trainer, the longer it will take for the dog to associate the clicker with what you want rather than something else that was at least as probable.

Now, clicking a loose leash is not that complex, but, under the wrong circumstances, that is, in an environment full of distractions, the job could be made MUCH more complicated than it should. I must admit that I have never had to train a dog that has had a prolonged (years) and severe leash (lunging) problem, but I have trained a fair number of dogs to maintain a loose leash. I maximized my success by restricting the training environment and the options of the dog. I would not leave the restricted environment (say a barn first, then the company grounds, and then a meadow, etc.) until the behavior was very good. I would expand the environment and increase the behavioral criteria only when the dog's behavior said it was time."

Insights Into Puppy Mouthing
"Something else this makes me think of. I must say I have a different take on the notion of negative punishments. To begin with I don't call them that and think the semantics of them is a problem because of the attitude it creates. I do not want to take anything away from the dog as a punishment so that they will decrease the chance of the behavior happening. I Reward the dog. Just not with the Reward they would prefer

If for example the dog is jumping and nipping for attention I reward the Behavior. BUT I reward it with something like me going away. "Yippie, you win! I bet I know what you would like! Your Reward is my disappearance." I know that it is semantics on one level but on another level it is really a completely different methodology.

I don't do "penalty yards" (TM pending, Lana Horton). "You pull on the leash... Yippie! We get to walk backwards or stop." If the dog thinks I am an idiot... Great!

"Bob, you fool. I am not trying to get you to walk backwards. Hmmmm... what do I need to do to get this idiot to stop going the wrong direction???"

If my attitude remains that I am having a great time and even better if I am acting like I think that the Undesired Reward is what the dog wants I am not setting up a conflict. But I am motivating the dog to reexamine its choices. I am encouraging the dog to try and educate me as to the best thing to do."

if you take time to read all slightly different takes.

Personnal I find teaching loose leash walking one of the hardest thing you can do. As a matter of fact I find it just about impossible. The criteria of what is expect of the dog is to vague for me to reinforce properly. I find it much easier to train a formal heel where the dogs position is much more tightly controled.
In the above examples most "clicker trainer's" abhor the use of pain as a physical punishment for training which rules out things like choke collars and the sporn harness. Personnally again I find that tools like these can be useful because they give the dog feedback when the owner/trainer forgets to. Take the sporn for instance, dog pulls the cords under the armpit thighten and pinch dog. Dog stops pain end. Dog learn pulling hurts while wearing a sporn will pull less while wearing one. If however you do not take the time to teach or train the dog and rely solely on the device on those occasion the dog is on leash but not on the device it will pull and often pull like a maniac because he can.

 

[Mikey T]

I respectfully submit that I did not use the word dominance anywhere in my statement

You are certainly correct but it is my interpretation that a "dog trying to be a leader" is actively engage in a dominance struggle with the owner, if that is not the meaning you were trying to convey a appolize for the misinterpretation but I do not think I was the only one that lept to that conclusion.

 

[Mikey T]

"Speaking of complete and total BS, my opinion is that using either a harness or a head halter on a dog, outside of very specific situations, constitutes complete and total BS. I don't understand the resistance to just training the dog to walk nicely on a simple collar and a leash"

First I assume you are refering to a one of a myriad of training harnesses rather than a traditional harness that is little more than a secure collar.

For those dogs whos only exercise is a walk I think such restaints are necessary because

1. the walks become necessary not an option

2. pulling on the walks which is likely given the high distraction level undoes the training that occurs in a less distraction setting.

I often make the assuption that those are the circumstance of most of the dogs and owners when in reality it is not.

Most training equipment is often more of crutch as used by a person with two healthy leg. More often than not it just gets in the way of training, as confortable as the crutch has become.

 

[Guest]

Faye, if you don't mind my two cents, I don't think your dog's neck is as delicate as you think. My exerience of dogs is that their necks are very strong indeed.
I do not see the point of a harness on a dog that pulls. You have little control, the dog is delightfully comfortable and can really throw his weight into his shoulders and the results are messy. A well trained dog on a harnes is a different matter. But until that day I would forgo it.

When Opus was a young dog I trained him using a very simple choke chain and lead- that's it. I still use it today. It is simple and effective didn't take him too long to get the hang of it, and-as I have posted about this before- one short sharp snap on the choke chain is better than a thousand little pulls, shouting matches, or being dragged all over the place by an unruly dog.(I'm not talking about letting your dog pull you for half a block and strangling himself, the idea is to have the choke loose, but if need be you can snap it back it get your dogs immediate attention) It is easy, and doesn't confuse the dog or require a tug of war every time you step outside. If you can get past the idea that 'it doesn't seem right' And boy have I heard that one a million times, you will find that both you and your dog can and will enjoy peaceful polite walks together. it is an excellent training tool-used correctly.
Ps. I got all of my training tips from a police handler, I needed it as my last dog was a doberman and twice as strong as Opus and the last thing the world needed was a badly behaved Doberman. For that matter the last thing the world needs is a poorly behaved basset either. But don't panic, you'll get there.