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Georgette was a very lemon looking puppy.
all reds are born almost white. mahogany tend to look dark red and tris black and white.


Mahogany Mother tri father reds mahogany and tri offspring.

 

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Good job finding that litter to post. I would just say that a true LEMON/White is orn almost white with dirty splodges, but a red would be slightly darked at birth than a lemon, but not as dark as a mahogany,

Of those 10 puppies, left to right, puppies 1, 5, 8 and 10 are lemon/whites although I'd suggest 5, slightly darker at that point, could end up red/white. 2 are obviously tricolours and 4 mahogany. Our Ben was born very white but matured into a wonderful orangy/white colour until by the end of his days, he was basically white again. That Orangy colour came from the Wingjays behind him

So obviously the 6 come from the 'tricolour/mahogany' genes, and the other 4, from the bicolour genes.
 

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personally I would call none of them lemons


Vina'a Litter newbies



about 6 weeks


9 weeks


hope and Pumpkin ~ 6 months (pumpkin on right is darker one in earlier photos)


Hope 18 months
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Mahogany Mother tri father reds mahogany and tri offspring.

Thanks for posting this litter! I couldn't find any through my searching.

As soon as she has hers, I will post a picture. We are going on day 52 of pregnancy. Will have pups soon.

This is interesting... I thought you weren't supposed to see red, tris, and mahoganies all in the same litter.
 

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And there's another thing we disagree on - a true lemon/white which I am seeing there Mikey, is BORN significantly paler than a red or a mahogany/white. Regardless of how they are as adults. And fwiw, I'd call your Hope, a lemon and white, even as an adult. Reds are darker than she is as an adult.

But you say tom-aar-to, I say tomato. :p I guess.
 

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And there's another thing we disagree on - a true lemon/white which I am seeing there Mikey, is BORN significantly paler than a red or a mahogany/white. Regardless of how they are as adults. And fwiw, I'd call your Hope, a lemon and white, even as an adult. Reds are darker than she is as an adult.

But you say tom-aar-to, I say tomato. :p I guess.
LOL, Hope is definitely the lightest of our hounds, and I have been known to say she is the closest we have to a lemon, but I personally would consider a lemon to be paler than that. But I could see the argument for calling her lemon, and "lemon" can be very much in the eye of the beholder anyway, especially when it comes to lighter colored hounds. Not to mention that depth of color can change with their coat growth and shedding cycle, as well as age. And photos can be deceiving in regard to color.
 

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"This is interesting... I thought you weren't supposed to see red, tris, and mahoganies all in the same litter"

see my post page 2 I misspoke on page one. red vs tri & mahogany is one gene and tri vs Mahogany another so it is possible to get all three,
 

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"This is interesting... I thought you weren't supposed to see red, tris, and mahoganies all in the same litter"

see my post page 2 I misspoke on page one. red vs tri & mahogany is one gene and tri vs Mahogany another so it is possible to get all three,
Thanks for the clarification.
 

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"This is interesting... I thought you weren't supposed to see red, tris, and mahoganies all in the same litter"

see my post page 2 I misspoke on page one. red vs tri & mahogany is one gene and tri vs Mahogany another so it is possible to get all three,
Not so. Genetically tris and mahoganies are the same. The bicolours, lemon/white, red/white and if you like orange/white are genetically different from tris and mahoganies.

Hence the often seen black 'stripe' down the back of mahoganies when born, and the black masks and other black fur seen. Which lemon/whites, red/whites and orange/whites don't have.
 

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Not so. Genetically tris and mahoganies are the same. The bicolours, lemon/white, red/white and if you like orange/white are genetically different from tris and mahoganies
this is only true in regards to the E Locus (MC1R)

There is however a second gene pair that separates tris from mahoganies. It is the reason two tri mating never produces Mahoganies but two Mahoganies can produce tris. The mahogany gene is dominant to the tri see

Basset Hound Coat Color DNA Study

A Locus (ASIP)

There are 4 alleles of ASIP: ay, aw, at, and a.

Basset Hounds have two of these alleles: ay and at.

Tricolor, Black Tri, Black & White

These three color terms all refer to patterns caused by the at allele of ASIP. This allele produces a pattern of black pigment over the body of the dog, with tan colored points on the legs, cheeks, eyebrows, chest, and beneath the tail. Note that white markings can obscure tan points. Ticking on white patches will indicate if the underlaying region has black or red pigment.

Black Tri and Black & White are the same pattern, though the two names are often used interchangeably within the breed. Genetically, we would classify both of these patterns as "black-and-tan".

Marvin (below) and Elwood (2nd below) are both black-and-tan Basset Hounds. They are both at/at at ASIP. Note that Elwood also has piebald white spotting which obscures most of the pigment on his body. You can still distinguish the tan points on the legs by the red color of the ticking. His melanistic mask is also minimized by the white on his face


Saddle Tan

Some dogs express a "saddle tan" phenotype, often termed "tricolor" or "red headed tri" within the breed. These dogs are at/at at ASIP, so they are technically black-and-tan as well. They differ from the previously mentioned black-and-tan dogs in that the tan points have expanded to cover the head and ears, and often up the shoulder to the withers, and up the hind leg to the hip. The genetic mechanism that causes the tan points to expand to form the saddle tan phenotype is not yet known.

Ginny (below) and Gracie (2nd below) are both saddle tan Basset Hounds. Notice that Gracie has piebald white spotting which covers much of her body. It can be difficult to determine if a dog is traditional black-and-tan or saddle tan in cases such as this. We can determine that Gracie is saddle tan because her head is predominantly red, without the distinctive tan cheeks and eyebrows seen in traditional black-and-tan dogs. Red pigment can also be seen in the ticking high on her shoulder and on the pigmented patch on her flank. If she were a traditional black-and-tan pattern, these pigmented patches would be solid black in color. Pedigree analysis indicates that saddle tan is dominant to traditional black-and-tan, though both phenotypes must also be at/at at ASIP.


Mahogany

Mahogany Basset Hounds are red, often with a few black hairs on the body or face. The overall color of Mahogany dogs tends to appear darker in color than what is seen in Red or Lemon dogs, though this is not a foolproof way of distinguishing Mahogany from Red. It is likely a result of black tipped hairs spread over the body in Mahogany dogs.

Mahogany is caused by the ay allele of ASIP, which is dominant to at.

BB, below, was submitted for this study as a Red & White Basset Hound. Testing revealed that she is, in fact, ay/at Mahogany. No black hairs are apparent in her coat from the photograph. This could lead to confusion as, if she were bred to a black-and-tan male, she would produce approximately 50% "red" puppies (actually Mahogany) and it could be assumed that the male were carrying the e allele of MC1R, which may not be true in reality.



Stachie (below) and Twister (2nd below) are both Mahogany Basset Hounds. Both are ay/at, expressing the dominant ay allele and carrying the at allele for black-and-tan. Twister has noticeable black hairs on his face due in part to also having the melanistic mask EM allele of MC1R, while BB (above) and Stachie do not.




Color.....................................E Genotypes .....................A Genotypes
Mahogany with Black Mask........EM/(EM, E, e)....................ay/(ay, at)
Mahogany without Black Mask........E/(E, e) .......................ay/(ay, at)
Black-and-Tan with Black Mask ..EM/(EM, E, e).......................at/at
Black-and-Tan without Black Mask...E/(E, e) ..........................at/at
Red or Lemon ................................e/e ........................(ay, at)/(ay, at)
 

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Firstly, obviously when the research was done by Mildred Seiffert years ago, DNA testing wasn't available.

Secondly of the examples here, visually I'd identify them as -

Marvin - Blanket dark tri, which I define as much by the tan eye points as anything else. With no tan eye points, he'd just be a Black blanket (tri).
Elwood - Open tricolour with black ticking (which can also be seen in brown on some hounds). This hound is very much representative of how the Halcyon hounds looked.
Ginny - 'conventional' saddle tricolour
Gracie - Another open tricolour with black ticking
As for the 'Mahoganies' I'd have needed to see them at birth (re the black stripe down the back). As it is -
Stachie - Blanket red
Twister - Mahogany (face mask). Very typical of the Bow-Ridge (Santana Mandeville) hound colouring.

Any recognised hound colour eh :)

ps You would have to have those lines with mahogany/white in them, to get that colouring. We had predominently tricolours and latterly dark tricolours, but never a mahogany.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
A litter was just born about 9 days ago that was also sired by Georgette's stud. The dam is tri. 6 pups, 3 males, 3 females. 3 are tri, 3 are mahogany. 2 of the males and 1 female are mahogany. 2 of the females and 1 male are tri.

Georgette is due as early as 3 more days... I'm excited to see what she has.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 10.29.16 PM.jpg

This is Georgette. Been letting her get used to her whelping box. You can't see her color really in my avatar picture. She is red. Her sire was lemon and her dam was mahogany (with very little white). When she was a puppy, she was extremely light. Very "lemon" looking as I would call it. She has red ticking all over her body. You can click on the picture to enlarge it, but you can't really see it here. It has always gotten a lot of comments.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 10.37.04 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 10.36.08 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 10.37.29 PM.jpg

Still learning how to post pictures in the threads, but maybe these pictures from her puppy days will show her ticking a little better.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Pups were born night of July 25.

She had 6 total, but the first was stillborn. 4 boys, 2 girls. 4 tricolor, 2 mahogany/white, and 0 reds.

The stillborn one was a tricolor boy and he was enormous. He was born dry with the sac already busted and the umbilical cord ripped.

All the other pups and their mother are doing fine.

It was interesting to see how the colors came out.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Screen Shot 2016-07-26 at 11.08.02 AM.jpg

Here she is with her colors. 3 tri and 2 mahoganies. Looks like the recessive red did not come out at all.
 

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View attachment 21785

Here she is with her colors. 3 tri and 2 mahoganies. Looks like the recessive red did not come out at all.
No, because from your description of his background it is very unlikely that the sire carries the gene. Both parents must have it to get red puppies. However, the dam can only throw the red gene so all of the puppies carry it.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
I have an interesting thing going on with my tricolors now. 2 are just Black and White. No tan ever showed. But one has reddish looking glaze to his black in the direct sun. I've started another thread to discuss that. AKC and the vet have been of no help for answers.
 
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