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I have a question about breeding color probabilities. So far, I cannot find anything that answers my question in the weeks I have researched.

My 20-month old female is a Red and White AKC-Registered "American" Basset Hound. Her parents were Lemon/white (Sire) and Mahogany/white (Dam).

She is bred to a Mahogany and White AKC Registered Elysian CH. Bloodline Basset. His parents were Tri: Black/tan/white (Sire) and Mahogany/white (Dam).

Does anyone know what the likelihood/ probability is for various coat colors? I am expecting mostly red/whites and mahogany/whites, but I would like to see a tri-color or two. I have some people interested in purchasing who specifically want tri-colors, so I did not know whether it was realistic to anticipate a variety or just a pile of little ginger bassets.

If anyone has ever bred reds and mahoganies, and any black/tris came out, please let me know!
 

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Research done into colours, genetically, some years ago by a leading breeder in the UK suggested that the mahogany/whites, which start out dark (often with a darker stripe down the back too) and lighten as the tricolours do, are related genetically to the tricolours. Unlike the reds or lemon and whites which start out light and usually darken. I think you may well have a mix of all combinations, based on what I've seen of such mating colours done here in the UK. The mahogany was rarely seen here until some more recent imports from Australia which were mahogany and white.

We have, apart from two, in two litters, had tricolours/dark tricolours but the two who weren't tris, were born almost white with muddy splodges which darkened as they got older. And then went very light again (the one we kept - the other one didn't survive beyond 18 weeks) by the time he died. Our Ben was very ghostly at the end.

I have to say we imported a blanket dark tricolour male from the UK into Canada. He had loads of lemon/white in his background (via the Wingjays who were all lemon, or as she called them, orange and whites). I so wanted a lemon/white bitch which we got in one litter, but she was the one who didn't survive. Ben, from a later litter going back on the imported male, was the only other bicolour we had over subsequent generations. So the tricolour trumped the bicolours.
 

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A bitch I purchased had a red sire and a mahogany dam. There were reds, mahoganies and tris in the litter. Keep in mind that in order to get reds both parents must carry it.

I would suggest getting involved with your local Basset Hound club before getting into breeding.
 

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see Basset Hound Coat Color DNA Study


tris with any mahogany ia dependant on whether the mahogany has either a second tri gene or Red and White which are both subordinate to Mahogany.

"Mahogany Basset Hounds are red, often with a few black hairs on the body or face. The overall color of Mahogany dogs tends to appear darker in color than what is seen in Red or Lemon dogs, though this is not a foolproof way of distinguishing Mahogany from Red. It is likely a result of black tipped hairs spread over the body in Mahogany dogs.

Mahogany is caused by the ay allele of ASIP, which is dominant to at."

it should be impossible to get reds, Mahoganies and tris in the same. In a Mahogany red mating if he Mahogany is Mahogany/mahogany you only get mahogany, if the mahogany is mahogany/tri you get an even split mahogany and tri or if the mahogany is mahogany and red then you get an even split of mahogany and red, Keep in mind when it comes to colors on an AKC form it is in the eye of the beholder. A genetic red might and can be registered as a Mahogany and often a Genetic Mahogany is registered as red. It can be impossible to tell a true Mahogany without genetic testing.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
see Basset Hound Coat Color DNA Study


tris with any mahogany ia dependant on whether the mahogany has either a second tri gene or Red and White which are both subordinate to Mahogany.

"Mahogany Basset Hounds are red, often with a few black hairs on the body or face. The overall color of Mahogany dogs tends to appear darker in color than what is seen in Red or Lemon dogs, though this is not a foolproof way of distinguishing Mahogany from Red. It is likely a result of black tipped hairs spread over the body in Mahogany dogs.

Mahogany is caused by the ay allele of ASIP, which is dominant to at."

it should be impossible to get reds, Mahoganies and tris in the same. In a Mahogany red mating if he Mahogany is Mahogany/mahogany you only get mahogany, if the mahogany is mahogany/tri you get an even split mahogany and tri or if the mahogany is mahogany and red then you get an even split of mahogany and red, Keep in mind when it comes to colors on an AKC form it is in the eye of the beholder. A genetic red might and can be registered as a Mahogany and often a Genetic Mahogany is registered as red. It can be impossible to tell a true Mahogany without genetic testing.
Very informative, thanks!

The sire is DNA tested and is a true mahogany based on that.
 

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"The sire is DNA tested" the AKC DNA test does not test coat genetics

Dog DNA Test - American Kennel Club

"What information does the DNA testing provide?
AKC DNA Profiling is for parentage verification and genetic identity purposes only. It does not provide information regarding genetic health, conformation, performance ability, coat color, etc. AKC DNA is not a breed identification test beyond confirming parentage if the sire and dam also have DNA on file."
 

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FWIW IF the dog is red and white but has a black mask. then it must be a mahogany Black mask only exist in tris and mahoganies.

and sometime anomalies just pop up

Vina (aka our closet tri)

Note the black spot on the end of the tail. Been there from birth on a genetic red and white.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
As a puppy, the sire had a black "stripe" down his back that has since disappeared.... Is that also indicative to true mahogany? My red/white girl looked more lemony as a puppy.
 

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I would suggest getting involved with your local Basset Hound club before getting into breeding.
In the past 2 years, I have not been able to find any official club around where I live. All I have found is about 3 breeders within a 3-state region who have bred champion bloodline bassets, each for over 30 years, and they school us newbies on any questions we may have.

The only thing around here is a big basset hound "rescue" that shames dog breeding and advocates for the fixing of all bassets. They are actually the reason I ended up going to breeders to get my 2 girls in the first place. Tried for 7 months to get a basset from them. They kept finding petty reasons why I was not a "good fit" or would just stop communication in general and I would have to re-initiate. I wanted a basset, so I was pretty much forced to go the breeder route.... and now here I am.
 

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As far as AKC "DNA Testing"... this sire has fathered numerous litters... I believe about 10 now, and he is 3 years old. He's a really good stud, so it is common practice to DNA profile a dog who sires over 7 or so litters?
 

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As far as AKC "DNA Testing"... this sire has fathered numerous litters... I believe about 10 now, and he is 3 years old. He's a really good stud, so it is common practice to DNA profile a dog who sires over 7 or so litters?
It is required by AKC.

Siring a lot of litters does not indicate a "good stud" , it just means the breeder used him a lot. You want to look at the quality of puppies he's producing. My boys earned their ROMs on just a few litters each.
 

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there is a big difference between "have bred champion bloodline bassets" vs have bred champion bassets. Often time for profit breeder advertise "champion blood lines. but they are so far down the Pedigree to become relatively meaningless



'All I have found is about 3 breeders "

BHCA BREEDER DIRECTORY
http://www.basset-bhca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=54&Itemid=142


member clubs
http://www.basset-bhca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=97

Keep in mind most of the clubs cover a wider territory than the state indicated for Instance the club we belong to Pilgrim Basset hound club is Listed as Massachusetts but it covers all of New England and has Members from eastern NY as well.


Also localish Conformation shows are a place to find breeders as well

InfoDog - The Dog Fancier's Complete Resource for information about AKC Dog Show Events, and Dog Products and Services
for show information
and you can check the Judging panel after the show closes to confirm if any bassets are entered.
 

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THE MYTH (AND OFTEN OUTRIGHT DECEPTION) OF “CHAMPION LINES”

"One of the cardinal ways to recognize a breeder who is what we in the show-breeding world would call less than reputable is that they will talk about “Champion lines” or “Championship pedigree.”

Here’s why this is such a bad sign:

– It means absolutely nothing when it comes to the quality of the dog. Most of the offspring of a champion dog are not good enough to warrant breeding; the possibility of genuinely breeding-quality dogs becomes even more remote when the champion relative is a grandparent or great-grandparent. THAT IS WHY GOOD BREEDERS NEVER USE THIS TERM. We would never think of one champion grandparent as being something to brag about. Neither should you.

– It shows that the breeder knows enough that they realize that successful show dogs make the best producers of pet dogs, but that they don’t want to put in the effort, time, and money (and passion) to prove their OWN dogs in the show ring. It’s very common for that type of breeder, when pushed, to say that avoiding the show ring is a virtue, that they don’t want to “stress” their dogs by showing them. But then why do they brag that the owners of their dog’s grandparents did so?"
 

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Quality breeders are their own worse enemy in this regard The Unspoken code of ethic. Not breeding unless you already have homes for all the dogs, Not advertizing etc makes it nearly impossible to find a quality breeder.

http://www.basset.net/boards/general-basset-hound-discussion/44593-signs-backyard-breeder-completely-utterly-wrong.html

from one of my posts on the above thread
"Beware if the breeder does not reject high-risk buyers: (renters, young people, those with poor track records, low income, other pets, dogs kept outdoors)"

each buyer is an individual and must be assessed that way. Blanket Must have a fenced yard etc are elitist claptrap. Yes there can be red flags with certain thing but one must look at the whole and not single individual items to qualify or disqualify a buyer

and the Wife's response

Beware if the breeder does not reject high-risk buyers: (renters, young people, those with poor track records, low income, other pets, dogs kept outdoors)

each buyer is an individual and must be assessed that way. Blanket Must have a fenced yard etc are elitist claptrap. Yes there can be red flags with certain thing but one must look at the whole and not single individual items to qualify or disqualify a buyer/
These and other factors would cause me to be more cautious, but each buyer is an individual situation. For example, the fenced yard requirement. You can have a buyer with a fenced yard that just puts the dog out in the yard for relief and exercise, or you can have an owner without a fenced yard that takes the dog for frequent walks. Which do you think is better for the dog?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
there is a big difference between "have bred champion bloodline bassets" vs have bred champion bassets. Often time for profit breeder advertise "champion blood lines. but they are so far down the Pedigree to become relatively meaningless
According to the stud's pedigree, 6 of 8 great-grandparents were champions. His sire fathered some dogs who are champions themselves. They owned 4 of the great-grands.

My breeder friend who owns him only sells puppies who are "show quality"... when they sell a pup they guarantee that it can be shown and are confident the pup could earn titles...they are quick to pick out any that have ears that set too high and they stray away from the box head. None of their dogs ever get "cherry eye" like I have heard some breeders say they sometimes see. They absolutely do not produce lemon or blue coat colors. Or long hair. The only produce mahoganies and tris. I just know that when I go out there, they have the most beautiful "classic" looking bassets I have ever seen in person. They have very shiny coats, perfect droopy skin, legs are short/"fat" with huge feet.

The breeder I got my dam (Georgette) from honestly did not impress me. Georgette was one of the very best dogs they produced, but since getting her, I have seen that they sell their American basset hounds for way too high for limited registration (I raised hell until I got Full with Georgette) and no champion bloodlines at all. They also produce long-haired bassets and have a page on their website dedicated to the "rarity" of that and sell tri-blue/white/tan and lemons.

I know someone with one of the blue tris, and the poor thing has lots of skin issues and very brittle hair.
 

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According to the stud's pedigree, 6 of 8 great-grandparents were champions. His sire fathered some dogs who are champions themselves. They owned 4 of the great-grands.
Case in point.


My breeder friend who owns him only sells puppies who are "show quality"... when they sell a pup they guarantee that it can be shown and are confident the pup could earn titles
LMAO, NOBODY, not even the top breeders in the country, or in the world for that matter, only sell/produce show quality puppies. To have a litter of puppies that could all become champions is a rarity. However, that is a claim often used by breeders that don't have a clue what "show quality" means.

They absolutely do not produce lemon or blue coat colors. Or long hair.
The is no shame in *producing* a long-coat or a blue (and lemons are an acceptable color), even the best bloodlines can produce these. I would be wary, though, of breeders promoting them as "rare" or special or charging extra for them. I had a beautiful long coat that I loved very much, but I made it clear to admirers (and she had many) that the long coat is undesireable and a disqualification under the standard.

The only produce mahoganies and tris
That means it is unlikely that you will get reds from your breeding.
 

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As a puppy, the sire had a black "stripe" down his back that has since disappeared.... Is that also indicative to true mahogany? My red/white girl looked more lemony as a puppy.
Yes, a red will have no black hairs at all (unless you get a fluke, often called a mosaic or chimera, where a small portion of the dog's coat is genetically different, such as our Vina pictured earlier). Mahoganies are born dark, reds are born very light, almost white.
 

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Yes, a red will have no black hairs at all (unless you get a fluke, often called a mosaic or chimera, where a small portion of the dog's coat is genetically different, such as our Vina pictured earlier). Mahoganies are born dark, reds are born very light, almost white.
Makes sense. As I think I stated before, my Georgette was a very lemon looking puppy.
 

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it should be impossible to get reds, Mahoganies and tris in the same. In a Mahogany red mating if he Mahogany is Mahogany/mahogany you only get mahogany, if the mahogany is mahogany/tri you get an even split mahogany and tri or if the mahogany is mahogany and red then you get an even split of mahogany and red, Keep in mind when it comes to colors on an AKC form it is in the eye of the beholder.

ok that is not correct there are two separate genes involved. One for red vs Tri Mahogany or more correct red vs red&black and a second Gene that comes into play if Red & Black gene is active. which separates tris from mahoganies. Red vs tri mahogany vs tri mahogany with black mask is on the E (MC1R) alle . ee Red is recessive, so a Ee or an Em(with black mask) e will produce tris and mahoganies that when bred with reds will produce reds 50% reds . However EE when bred to a red will not produce reds but all will be carriers of red gene. The recessive nature of the Red gene mean that two tris or mahoganies or combination tri & mahogany can produce red under the right circumstances but two red can only produce reds.

As the Wife say if the stud when bred with reds in the past did not produce reds it is most likely EE and no reds would ever be produced, If the stud has only been bred to other mahoganies and tris and comes from a line of tris and mahoganies only it is not likely to carry the e gene but there is a small possibility.
 
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