[gsally]

So I've found a litter of pups born recently which would make the homecoming date do-able (June), which works out perfectly for the pet nanny service I can work out with my daughter who is a teacher and off for the summer. Here's the thing, I'd be the last person making a deposit and wouldn't have an opportunity to "choose" a pup, I'd be getting the pup that was left after everyone else made their choice. Is there cause for concern with a situation such as this?

 

[Mikey T]

Is there cause for concern with a situation such as this?

Contrary to popular belief most puppy temperment testing is B.S. the only consistent behavioral trait carried from puppyhood to adulthood is fearful. This is a trait you would want to avoid. A fearful puppy will never become and out going one and will only become worse on less extensively counteractive. Fear also can be the underly cause of many aggressive behaviors. It is well document most dog bite out of fear.

Pass on a fearful puppy other than that you should be ok if you are active in habituation and socialization of the pup along with the breeder prior to getting the dog.


Temperament and personality in dogs
(Canis familiaris): A review and evaluation
of past research

The strongest interpretable validity coefficients (unweighted mean = .48, sampleweighted mean = .45) are associated with the Fearfulness dimension. Fearfulness was examined in many studies and with many different predictors. It may not be surprising that Fearfulness is associated with strong validity coefficients and a relatively narrow confidence interval (.33–.55), because this dimension has been shown to be relatively highly predictable, even from early puppyhood to later adulthood (e.g., Goddard and Beilharz, 1984b

Puppy Testing
Predictive Value of Tests

Although it is widely assumed that it is possible to accurately predict a dog's adult temperament from early testing, this has never actually been satisfactorily demonstrated in any scientific study. An interested breeder or trainer can endeavor to answer this question

Early testing only predicts how the puppies might develop if left to their own devices and if all treated equally. But pups and adolescents are never treated equally. Some grow up in great homes, others in good homes and yet others in bad homes — some poor dogs grow up with owners who should not be allowed to keep a rock, let alone a dog. The owner-variable far overshadows potential puppy predispositions. And without a doubt, a poor puppy prospect in a good home almost always becomes a better canine companion than a good puppy prospect in a poor home.

Human intervention is certainly the most important factor determining predictability: whether or not the new owners capitalized on the dog's potential good characteristics and/or resolved expected or incipient bad characteristics that were revealed in earlier testing. It would be naive to expect a dog to cure his own faults. Behavior and temperament are in a state of constant flux, and without human guidance, faults generally tend to get worse rather than better. It would be tantamount to stupidity to test a pup and discover that he is fearful, rambunctious, or aggressive, yet leave him to develop in this expected fashion. Surely a major reason for early testing is to locate potential or incipient problems and solve them before they become full-blown. Similarly, it would be utter folly to assume that a dog's naturally good temperament will necessarily remain that way indefinitely. As soon as owners become presumptively audacious about their pet paragon with the perfect personality, the dog's demeanor will predictably begin to deteriorate.

How Do You Score as a Puppy Picker?

The first rule of puppy picking is to accept that the process is a gamble. Puppies are not perfect little machines, assembled from standardized parts. They are not even carbon copies of their parents. They are individual animals whose physical and behavioral traits are not immediately observable.

...Since the 1950's, several "temperament tests" have evolved that claim to accurately predict future adult behavior by analyzing puppy behavior. While many people believe in the effectiveness of such tests, long-term scientific analysis of such methods is sparse and not always in agreement. A recent, two-year-long doctoral study by Gabi Hoffman, at the University of Queensland, Australia, seems to indicate that prior to five months, puppies go through several behavioral transformations. Until that time there are observable traits that will predict the behavior of the adult animal. Undesirable behaviors such as leg lifting, territorial aggression and a tendency toward developing phobias may remain invisible to temperament tests but suddenly appear in the adult animal. The overall evidence appears of lend caution to using any temperament test as the sole means of picking or not picking a particular pup.

 

[Soundtrack]

It is my opinion that it is far more important to pick the breeder than the individual puppy.

If you are getting the puppy from a good source, the last puppy in the litter will still be a good one. If you are getting it from a poor source, then even the "pick" puppy may not be worth taking home.

 

[hig4s]

Contrary to popular belief most puppy temperament testing is B.S.

You have quoted other people's papers, There are lots of papers out there by respected professionals that disagree. Do you have any personal experience with puppy testing? Or at least know someone that does?

A fearful puppy will never become and out going one and will only become worse on less extensively counteractive.

What???? I don't actually understand that sentence.



This is from a top pro breeder, that I personally know, that does puppy testing, about puppy evaluations.

"There are many of these results that do and will change as the puppy becomes an adult. They are altered by socialization, proper training and nurturing to promote confidence and suppress dominance and expand retention. The areas that we have found will not change to any great degree are energy level, disposition, play extent, attention, all physical sensitivities, mental stability, intelligence and memory. The other areas can be formed and molded by how the puppy is trained and by environment. Conformation can even change slightly, especially when speaking about the head; substance; size; and rears of the dog."

 

[Mikey T]

What???? I don't actually understand that sentence.

That what happens when I type at 3 am

A fearful puppy will never become an out-going one, as it matures it will only become worse unless the self-reward nature of the behavior/personality is extensively counteracted with lifetime training and behavior modification,


There are not any sceintific peer reviewed studies that validate puppy temperment testing ability is predict adult personality that I am aware of. . The best that exist is a strong corrolation between Fearfulness as a puppy and fearfulness as an adult. One need to keep in min that those the perform temperment tests do so because they believe in the result of such test hence they have a built in bias. There proclomations are simply opinion based on limited anticdotal evidence, it is not supported by the scientific evidence that exsits to date. It is their responsibility to prove the validity of such tests not the other way round, which to date has not been done, Even those that perform such test will admit to limited usefullness.


There is huge disagreement beteween pratitionioner on how to test, what to test, how to evaluate result, Number of encounters need etc This just points out how little consences actual exists in the field.

 

[gsally]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I asked b/c I wanted to hear different opinions. Thank you for sharing them.

I'd have to say I like the advice of #2, Soundtrack and I appreciate the reminder of how important it is to screen the breeder (who will also be screening the potential buyer). Secondly, I do agree somewhat with the "fear" factor. Our first family pet was a hyperactive black lab that was afraid of everything and only like my husband. She never bonded with me or anyone else but him. It was a hopeless situation b/c we just couldn't devote the time she "needed".

All of these opinions have some valid facts/points. I just have to think/hope, what will be will be! Take a gamble, take the plunge. I seem to be searching for the perfect situation, perfect puppy, perfect timing. I don't know what is holding me back other than thinking I'll never find a replacement for my girl Lucy!

 

[Rusty Stickers Mom]

I do think choosing a good breeder is the key. I did much research before I got Rusty & Stickers and passed on several Basset pups. It was well worth the time and effort.

 

[hig4s]

That what happens when I type at 3 am

A fearful puppy will never become an out-going one, as it matures it will only become worse unless the self-reward nature of the behavior/personality is extensively counteracted with lifetime training and behavior modification,

OK, now it makes sense.

One needs to keep in mind that those the perform temperment tests do so because they believe in the result of such test hence they have a built in bias.

And most of those that do scientific studies, (in all areas not just dogs) are trying to prove their point and also have built in bias. When the anecdotal evidence has been personally gathered by people personally I know over many years and I have seen it myself, while I will try to give the scientists the benefit of the doubt, I keep in mind they do not breed and raise dogs for a living, and I have to take the information from people that have committed their lives to doing just that as seriously, if not more so than I do the scientists.

 

[gsally]

I do think choosing a good breeder is the key. I did much research before I got Rusty & Stickers and passed on several Basset pups. It was well worth the time and effort.

It's so hard to be patient..............we miss our Lucy so much and have so many mixed emotions about starting over. There is a huge void in our life, the only way we can think of to fill that void is to get another basset. My husband and I both think when the right opportunity comes along..............it will all work out! Thanks for the encouragement and reminder to be patient!

BTW-we are passing on my recent find.

 

[hig4s]

It's so hard to be patient..............we miss our Lucy so much and have so many mixed emotions about starting over. There is a huge void in our life, the only way we can think of to fill that void is to get another basset. My husband and I both think when the right opportunity comes along..............it will all work out! Thanks for the encouragement and reminder to be patient!

BTW-we are passing on my recent find.

We just lost our Peanut in January, she was the easiest dog to house train I've ever had. We decided no dog could ever fill the void she left, so we got two new basset puppies. If nothing else the sleep deprivation from trying to train two at the same time keeps us from thinking too much about that she is gone.