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I have been hearing about a new standard for Basset hounds in Europe. The judging oh hounds at shows is placing more emphasis on much less loose skin due to eye issues and skin problems. Anyone have any experience with this?
 

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Uk cHange. The bReed after the pedigree dogs exposed dustup to add not to ec
Excess in a number of places. FCI follows the breed sTandard of the country of origin so thechanGe in the UK effected change in Europe. IMHO the change is relatively minor k
Given all the hoopla that followed
 

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When it was felt the Basset in the UK had become too exaggerated, the Breed Standard was 'revised'. It wasn't altered, but the wording changed in some areas to emphasise on what had always been there - NO EXCESSES. It was always so, but newer breeders started to think more was better. And as we have breeder-judges here with a very few all-rounders, this kind of situation just escalates with breeders rewarding what THEY produce. The UK Standard was revised, by the Breed Clubs and forwarded to the Kennel Club for ratification.

As far as Europe is concerned it is slightly different because they have classes for the Artesian Normand which is a slightly taller and 'dryer' (less wrinkling) version of what we see in the UK and in other countries. Years ago the AN was used via imported French hounds (noteably Ulema de Barly, later registered as Grims Ulema de Barly as he was imported into the famous Grims kennel) into the UK to widen the gene pool mainly. As they have these show classes, for the AN, Basset breeders have tended to move to a more exaggerated hound (much as most European hounds go back to the original UK exports - the Fredwell, Akerwoods, Beacontrees and so on.) But then our hounds came from where the breed originated - France which is the 'country of origin of the Basset - NOT the UK!!

I do believe that European breeders in general (not all!) are moving towards trying not to be producing so much exaggeration however. Looking it up, the only FCI Basset Breed Standard I can see is dated 2011. That Breed Standard says 'origin - UK' but this is probably the origin of the Standard because the BREED is one of the FRENCH scent hound breeds.

Add - the revision was about excess skin, but also about how low to the ground the breed had become, their ear length and length of back. There was a faction who seemed to want to change the Basset into A BEAGLE!!!
 

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Them's fightin words!!! ;)

The UK absolutely IS country of origin. The original French hounds were not "Basset Hounds" per se and they were crossed with other breeds (notably the Bloodhound) to create the breed as we know it today. There are no BASSET HOUNDS (as opposed to other basset breeds) anywhere that do not go back to the original UK hounds.

Saying that the Basset Hound is a French breed is like saying that the American Cocker Spaniel is an English breed because the original dogs used to develop them came from there.
 

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BASSET HOUND

"Country of origin of the breed GREAT BRITAIN"

Basset Hounds: Basset Hound Dog Forums - The Early History of the Basset Hound in England, 1874-1921
"Breeders of basset hounds are often asked the question: "Do you breed English or French bassets?" The answer the puppy buyer often receives is: "There is no such thing as a French basset." Of course, this is not quite true. In fact, there are many different kinds of French bassets, but they are not officially recognized by The American Kennel Club and therefore are very rare in this country.

Among the many French bassets (the word basset in French simply means low-slung) there are two which concern us here most: the Basset Artésien Normand, the direct ancestor of our own basset hound, and the Basset Bleu de Gascogne, which was most likely interbred with the Basset Artésien Normand before its arrival in England in 1866.

Today's Basset Artésien Normand superficially looks like a basset hound. But only superficially. First of all, there is the size difference. While a basset hound's weight--depending on the sex and bloodlines--is between 45 and 70 pounds, the Basset Artésien Normand's is around 30-35. While the basset hound has lots of extra skin and massive bones, the Basset Artésien Normand lacks both. While the basset hound's head has a pronounced occiput, the Basset Artésien Normand's skull is quite flat. While the basset hound's earset is supposed to be low--below eye level--the Basset Artésien Normand's earset, at least in comparison to our basset hound, is quite high. While our basset's eyes are supposed to be slightly sunken, showing a prominent haw, the Basset Artésien Normand's eyes are round and lack the necessary haw that gives the basset hound such a doleful appearance. While the basset's lips are pendulous and the dewlap pronounced, the Artésien Normand has a long muzzle, lacks a dewlap, and its head, as opposed to the basset hound, is quite refined. Although the basset hound was developed from the Basset Artésien Normand, today--due to inter- and selective breeding--they are two distinctive breeds. However, because of the vagaries of genetics, the ancestor's looks will crop up here and there, especially in poorly bred specimens, like pet-shop bassets, who often bear a suspicious resemblance to the Basset Artésien Normand. The problem is that they are supposed to be basset hounds, a different breed.

How did the Basset Artésien Normand get into England and what happened to it in subsequent years? This is the topic of this piece.

...hus Millais began an unchartered journey of crossbreeding the basset with another breed in the hope of rejuvenating the English basset hound.

In 1892 Millais decided to cross his only basset hound, Nicholas (a heavily linebred dog on Fino de Paris) with a bloodhound. Crossbreeding was not new to Millais who much earlier had experimented with crossing the basset with the beagle. Shortly after he purchased Model he bred him to a beagle bitch and bred back the resulting beagle-basset bitches to Model. He did not particularly like the results and abandoned the experiment when he discovered Lord Onslow's Finette. In his opinion, what the heavily inbred English bassets needed almost twenty years after the breed's introduction to England was greater size, something the beagles could not give. Here is Millais's own description: "employed the Bloodhound as the vehicle for importing fresh blood to counteract the commencing degeneration on the part of the Basset, considering that this cross would be of infinitely greater value to us breeders than the importation would be of a number of French Bassets of the same variety, but of inferior type and size. . . . I may state at once that when we imported our Bassets from France, we imported the best that France possessed and notwithstanding degeneration, what we have in England is better than France can now offer us." Whether Millais was simply partial to the bassets in England and unjust in judging them superior to their French relatives, I cannot say. What Millais most likely did not realize that he did not just improve the Basset Artésien Normand, he created a new breed: today's basset hound."
 

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Basset Hounds - Champdogs ®

I GIVE UP. I suggest people read the attached link (there are others) for starters and if they still believe the Basset is a British breed .........
SCREAM. And if the Basset's ORIGINS are in Great Britain, then I'm Chinese.

Such a load of 'inaccuracies' written on this website.

Add - How 'bout this ..... http://www.bassethoundclub.co.uk/documents/basset_hound_history.pdf

Fact is the breed IS French although over some years, especially lately, the British via imports from Holland and elsewhere across Europe. America and Canada (which really are only British lines coming back into the UK) has been changed/developed. So perhaps this concept about the breed being British, comes from this (being charitable)? But the fact remains, the Basset's origins lie in France. The name alone should suggest this!! Nobody in Britain would use the word Bas-set.

"There are no BASSET HOUNDS (as opposed to other basset breeds) anywhere that do not go back to the original UK hounds. " And where do you think the ORIGINAL Bassets coming into the UK, came from? I have Breed Records (hounds originally registered with the KC here) going back to the early 1930s which show exactly where they came from!!

Add 2 - Boy am I fired up about this one - here's another link which if the reader scrolls down, will explain more about the ORIGINS of the Breed
http://www.just-basset-hounds.com/basset-hound-origin.html
 

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what came into England were not "Basset Hounds" they were other basset breed s and in this case from dogs that went on to become Basset artesian normande clearly not 'Basset Hounds" people keep confusing "Basset Hound" as a breed with basset hounds being any dwarfism a french hunting hound like Basset artesian Normande, Petit and Grand Basset Griffon Vendéen basset bleu de gascogne. basset fauve de bretagne. While the foundation stock may of come from France the breed was developed in England and as such it is a English breed. With the cross breeding Of a Bloodhound with French foundation stock as distinct and separate breed was created in England separate from the breeds in France. Again the issue you are having is separating the actual breed from a collection of dogs with a single similar feature dwarfism.

Useing your logic the basset hound and all bassets of all breeds are Belgian breed given the St hubert Monastry is in Belgium!. Hmm why not Greece since that is The orgins of "mastiff type dogs" that were brought to england and developed as War dogs. The native celtic population through selective breeding developed The for runners of all modern scent hounds.

Scenthound History - American Kennel Club
"It is widely believed that the Celtic people first realized that some of the mastiff-type dogs had incredible scenting ability, and used them for hunting. Long before the Christian era, the Celtics selectively bred those Alaunt-type mastiffs that were best at following a trail, and created a sort of gigantic scenthound. Later many scenthounds may have been crossed with speedy sighthounds. Over the years, the pendulous mastiff ears and thick, heavy skin were retained, but scenthounds of lighter bone, less bulk, and obliging temperament were developed. These moved faster, did not tire easily, and were controllable during the hunt.


INDIVIDUAL BREEDS EVOLVE
Selective breeding to establish breed type in scenthounds began in a Belgium monastery called St. Hubert's during the Middle Ages. Using Celtic dogs from Gaul (France), the monks developed a medium sized, black and tan dog with a heavy head and a large bone. A deliberate, reliable, but slow hunter, this hound attained renown for its melodic voice and superior scenting ability. A direct ancestor of the modern Bloodhound, the St. Hubert Hound spread throughout Europe and was a progenitor of many scenthound breeds. One of these was a variation with a pied or liver coat called the Talbot Hound, and another was the predominantly white Southern Hound."


When looking at breed origin one has to look at when the Breed was purposely bred for a specific appearance and function. Until the 18th century function was the primary driving forces it was not till 18th and 19th century that appearance became important and hence emergence of most breeds to this time frame. one of which is the "Basset Hound"

the Breed we call "basset Hounds" was developed in England from imported dog yes but it was developed in England not france.

this is no different than any breed Originating in the US ie Boston Terrier from English bulldog and White english terrier. American Cocker Spaniel, American Fox hound etc.

I have a huge problem with statement like "Around the same time, the Basset hound
makes a cameo appearance in
Shakespeare s A Midsummer Night s
Dream (1598), when Theseus describes
his hunting pack:"

When the breed was not in existence and did not come into existence for 200 years. Hell how that description does not even preclude the dogs of being normal height as a Bloodhounds ear sweep the morning dew.

and lafayette please again before the existence of the "basset hound" as a breed though there were many breeds or breeders of dwarf scent hounds in France. however I have seen many accounts calling the dogs "Virginia Bench Legged Beagles"

I have seen this same Deliberate mistake made over and over again to make it appear the breed is older than it really is. Harriers as early as 1300's because that is when the word first occurs in print in describing dogs. However in the day Harrier meant any dog used to hunt Hare not a specific breed as today. and Likely there is no proof of direct lineage between the two .
 

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all the articles you cite and many more that you don't all make a similar mistake and that is "Basset Hound" a breed is different than basset hound a conglomeration of all dwarf scent hounds one must be careful not to mix the two. and Not let Ancient history take precedent over More recent and defining.

It really is quite simple when french dwarf breeds were crossed bred with a bloodhound a Distinct and separate breed was created. This occurred in England not France.

Also I think Most basset breeders and Breed Clubs have a problem with actual history because the breed origins are not form follows function. It Literally developed for its appearance only. The fact that it could still hunt was a happy accident.

I know that basset look like the do because that is how certain individuals desired to make the dog look is powerful amunition for purebred dogs exposed crowd but them are the actual facts and trying to hide behind revisionist history is simply cowardly.
 

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Also I think Most basset breeders and Breed Clubs have a problem with actual history because the breed origins are not form follows function. It Literally developed for its appearance only. The fact that it could still hunt was a happy accident.
Mikey, Mikey, Mikey - oh dear. 'Most Basset breeders and Breed Clubs' are ALL wrong, and only you are right then eh.

If you want to live in your little bubble so be it. ;)

FWIW and I really don't know why I'm bothering with all this - the Bloodhound outcrossing done in the UK was done because the gene pool was getting too small and so it was felt outcrossing to another somewhat similar breed would be a good idea. Which it was in the main.

I imagine you'll hear my scream across the Atlantic.

Add - Tandm - sorry your innocent question has been hijacked like this!! My original answer stands.
 

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"ikey, Mikey, Mikey - oh dear. 'Most Basset breeders and Breed Clubs' are ALL wrong, and only you are right then eh.

If you want to live in your little bubble so be it. "


LMAO that is why the Largest breed organization in the World lists country of origin as England.


" UK was done because the gene pool was getting too small and so it was felt outcrossing to another somewhat similar breed would be a good idea. Which it was in the main."

Yet this was not necessary for the Basset artesien Normand because obviously given that they are from the same stock and the same origin so by your Logic the Basset artesien Normand and the "Basset Hound" are the same breed. If not the same breed Explain how the "Basset Hound" developed a separate breed standard and Club in England and not in France, but is a "French breed . And By your logic the Boston terrier is an English breed because the stock was imported from England and were English breeds.
 

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http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/163g06-en.pdf
ORIGIN: Great Britain.

Scent hounds and related breeds

BASSET HOUND
"country of origin of the breed GREAT BRITAIN"

Basset Hound Dog Breed
Country of Origin: Great Britain
"The FCI standard is based on the standard of the member club of the country of origin or patronage."

BOHEMIA HORRIDO - Bassethound :: Braque d'Auvergne kennel :: Standard of Bassethound
"The breed standard is a written characteristics of the breed. The first breed standards apeared in Great Britain in early history of pure breeding. Its goal is to desribe general apearance of the hound, its typical breed marks, and contruction of body, head, legs and all details, that make a dog a true Basset Hound. The breed standard should be used by breeders to find and keep an ideal type of hound, and to use the ones, who seem to be as much close to the ideal as possible for further breeding. On dog shows the breed standard is used by judges to compare the exhibited dogs with breed standard. The modern Basset Hound origins from Great Britain, and that is why all countries, who are F.C.I. members, use the british standard.
First breed standards were made in Great Britain allready at the end of 19th century, but they can not be used for bassets today.
Today Basset Hound is bred all over the world. A big population od breed lives in the USA, where the breed club BHCA (Basset Hound Club of America) created a breed modern breed standard in 1963, which was later adopted by the international cynological federation F.C.I. for the rest of the world. Since sixties Bassets in Europe were judge according to the american standard, which was in some items much more detailed. That is why I still refer -in some of my comments- to the american standard. At the end of seventies the F.C.I. changed the standard and since that time the british text is valid for the rest of the world. The british standard as adopted at that time by F.C.I. is valid with smaller or bigger modifications till today.
Latest changes were made in 2009 in Great Britain and in 2010 in F.C.I. The british Kennel Club has, with veterinary assistance, undertaken a detailed review of several breed standards, among others the one of Basset Hound, „to ensure that the descriptions given always promote the breeding and exhibition of dogs where health, welfare and temperament are of paramount importance and where the dogs have the best chance of being fit, healthy and happy“, as is written in the the official statement of Kennel Club. Latest F.C.I.standard changes started a world-wide discussion between breeders, if it will result in remarkable change of the breed so much, that a Basset Hound of today will no more resemble the Basset Hound of tomorrow. I don´t share this opinion. Only future will show, if the revision of breed standard will help breeders and judges to find a really ideal and healthy type of Basset Hound, without loosing its typical characteristics, for which the breed is loved, admired and bred."
 

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MY final word (hopefully, but probably not!) on all this, and I'm truly saddened that this has deteriorated to where this question has gone, is that NOTHING in the world will persuade me that a breed I have devoted best part of 40+ years to is anything other than a FRENCH breed, originally. If it pleases you Mikey to think that the involvement of the British in the breed since the early years when it first arrived in the UK has turned it into a 'British breed' then frankly so be it. I believe you are wrong, in fact I know you are wrong, (and I could dig up any number of links to support what I believe to be correct, just as you seem to have time to do), but that's all I have to say on the subject.
 

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We had this discussion a while ago on Facebook. A very prominent breed historian joined in and stated that the breed is English. Given the extensive research he has done on the breed's history I would think he would know.
 

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We had this discussion a while ago on Facebook. A very prominent breed historian joined in and stated that the breed is English. Given the extensive research he has done on the breed's history I would think he would know.
And I'd think so (would know) but I know he doesn't if he's talking about the ORIGINS of the breed. Can I PLEASE direct you two (and others out there who may well be being totally misled by all this mis-information) to George Johnston's respected book on the breed and his opening Chapter entitled 'Origins and Evolution'.

If this breed's ORIGINS lie in the UK, then I'm Chinese. :rolleyes:

Add - For those of you who are interested, if you can get hold of Randy Frederiksen's Basset Hound, A World History, which may not be in print now? his opening Chapter 'The 19th Century' lists the progress of the Basset-type hounds from 1863 and includes the history of how in '1866, the Comte de Tournon, IN FRANCE, sent Lord Galway IN ENGLAND a pair of basset-type hounds' called Basset and Belle. Further in 1867 'The first litter of basset-type hounds bred in England were whelped, from Basset and Belle'. Then in 1874 Sir Everett Millais bought Model at the Parish show....... and so on.

Again talking about the ORIGINS of the breed.
 

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As this notion that the Basset hound is a British breed is bugging me :D, I have emailed the FCI who I hope will reply with an explanation re their notation on the FCI Breed Standard - Origin - Great Britain.

Meanwhile I have found the following on the UK Kennel Club's website ' Breed Information Centre'
"The Basset was reputedly bred by monks in France in the Middle Ages to hunt in heavy cover and is able to hold its nose close to the ground. Though closely related to the entire family of French Bassets, the breed was developed to perfection in Britain."

I think this is basically where any confusion lies. Sic. TODAY'S Basset Hound as we see and love it, was indeed developed to perfection (some might question that!!) in Britain. But my comments here are based on one word - ORIGIN. For sure we don't have classes for the Artesien Normand in the UK, as they do on Continental Europe.
 

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You are confusing basset with "basset Hound" the breed. basset is any number of dwarf scent hound none of which are "BASSET HOUNDS"

What you are doing is the equivalent of calling Bloodhound and Saint Hubert hounds the same breed they are not and never have been.

"I think this is basically where any confusion lies. Sic. TODAY'S Basset Hound as we see and love it, was indeed developed to perfection (some might question that!!) in Britain."
"Correct we are speaking Specifical of the breed ie "Basset Hounds" not a genetic mutation occur in any number of scent hounds which undoubtedly was used and manipulate earlier in France but that is not the Question the Question is the Origin of a Specific Breed which undoubtedly is England. Hence the "Basset Hound" is an English breed developed from french hounds

For those of you who are interested, if you can get hold of Randy Frederiksen's Basset Hound, A World History, which may not be in print now? his opening Chapter 'The 19th Century' lists the progress of the Basset-type hounds from 1863 and includes the history of how in '1866, the Comte de Tournon, IN FRANCE, sent Lord Galway IN ENGLAND a pair of basset-type hounds' called Basset and Belle. Further in 1867 'The first litter of basset-type hounds bred in England were whelped, from Basset and Belle'. Then in 1874 Sir Everett Millais bought Model at the Parish show....... and so on.
LMAO the Historian Miriam aka soundtrack did not mention above in her post is none other than Randy Fredriksen " A very prominent breed historian joined in and stated that the breed is English. Given the extensive research he has done on the breed's history I would think he would know."

FWIW the FCI uses three criteria in determining where their breed standard should come from

country of origin/patronage/development of the breed

partner breed clubs can petition FCI for changing this as the historic and Political mess cause by the Choice of China as the location of World dog Show and the reclassification of a number of breed to originate from and/or developed clearly demonstrates.

Kennel Club bites back at the Chinese: Organisation becomes embroiled in debate over origins of the shih tzu after dog was first bred in Tibet | Tibet Express

Best In Show Daily

Not to be cynical (no that is not true) but AKC and FCI have been in a battle to become the Prominent organization that registers dogs in China's burgeoning purebred dog market, it is Why FCI World dog show is being held in China breed origin changes ect/ Especial given that FCI has no Tibetan affiliate,
https://jasmine091313.wordpress.com/2015/03/28/a-poker-game-or-mad-the-dog-world-holds-its-breath/
Chinese Controversies in the Dog Show World
 
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