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I have a 1.5 year old basset named "Libby". She is a very good dog most of the time, and doesn't have a mean bone in her. I've been having some trouble getting her to behave around other people, either when I take her outside, or people come over. Say someone comes over, the doorbell rings, dog gets excited but when she sees the person, she lets out this howl/whine/dying sound as she frantically tries to get as many pets as possible. Meanwhile she is jumping on them and chasing their feet. I usually put her in time out if she gets to that stage. Today I took her out to soccer with me. I had her tied up to a fence while I was playing. I look over and see a 2 year old kid walking over to her and she jumps up basically tackles the kid trying to lick him to death :eek: . Obviously the parent should never had let a kid go up to a strange dog unattended, but never the less I wasn't close enough to stop her. The kid was OK, just startled. Basically when she is around other dogs/people I have a very difficult time controlling her behavior.

I have taken her to training classes (clicker) and the entire time she would whine because she only wanted to play with the other dogs. She did learn the tricks none the less.

After that kid incident I did some research and picked up an electric training collar. So far I haven't had the heart to use it except on myself and while it doesn't feel good, its not painful. It also has a vibrate feature that I hope will be enough to control most behaviors.

What do you guys think of using these? I know most people believe they are inhumane, but as long as they are used correctly they seem to be pretty effective. I am hoping that it will be just enough to deter the dog from jumping and going out of control.

Thanks for your input here.

 

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I honestly don't think you want or need to use an e-collar. First, at 18 months, Libby is still barely out of her puppyhood. This overexhuberant behavior will probably fade *some* on its own as she matures. Second, there's the risk with any aversive the dog will associate the aversive with the stimulus in front of them, not the behavior--for example, becoming afraid of children or strangers because she was punished in their presence. This could lead to fearful behaviors, and that's not good. Sounds like she needs some training that goes beyond clicker training--like teaching an alternative behavior like sit, asking for the sit in the presence of people, and straightforward corrections for failing to sit , using a training (chain) collar, leash and a sharp NO! if she fails to sit. I'd look for a good dog training club in your area--not the Petco/Pet Club training classes--I'll bet they can help you correct the behavior pretty fast.
 

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While I think that they do have their place, I don't think it's warranted in this case. What's needed here is more training, more maturity (she's still immature), and better supervision/control of the dog.
 

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There are times that ecollar are effective and necessary but they are rare. They also come with an high lickly hood of unattended colaterall damage. In this case it is very possible with the use of such a device to create a fear of strangers by using one. Ifevery time a stranger approaches you were to get a painfull shock what would your perceptions of stranger be. It is not that likely a dog will associate its behavior with the shock but rather the circumstance in wich it occured

see <a href="http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf" target="_blank">Position Statement on the
Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals</a> by American Veterinary Society
of Animal Behavior

<a href="http://www.4pawsu.com/avsabpuinshment.pdf" target="_blank">Guidelines on the Use of Punishment for Dealing
with Behavior Problems in Animals</a> by American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior

The standard of care for veterinarians specializing in behavior is that punishment is not to be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. Consequently, the AVSAB urges that veterinarians in general practice follow suit. Additionally punishment should only be used when animal owners are made aware of the possible adverse effects. The AVSAB recommends that owners working with trainers who use punishment as a form of behavior modification
in animals choose only those trainers who, without prompting:

1) Can and do articulate the most serious adverse effects associated with punishment

2) Are capable of judging when these adverse effects are occurring over the short and/or long term

3) Can explain how they would attempt to reverse any adverse effects if or when they occur.
The standard of care for veterinarians specializing in behavior is that punishment is not used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems.[/b]
The problem you have can be quite simple be descriped as a lack of impulse control, This can be easily taught to a dog but the first step is to stop reinforcing such behavior. Below are a number of links on how to go about solving the problem.

Lowering Arousal: How to Train Impulse Control

Any Dog Can Live Calmly in a House - Even Yours!

Keep Me Calm

Zen Down or Settle

Protocol for Relaxation

Appendix B /The Protocol

Settle Down and Shush

Guidelines for Teaching Self Control
May require registering but it is free

Solution for Doorbell Barking

Retraining Manic Alert Barking

Quick Fix for a Jumping Dog




other notes

Impulse control is basic to all other training any class that does not address this issue when a student is clearly having a problem is a clear sign it is time to find a different class. To many associate Positive reinforcement with Permissiveness when that is not the case.
SAY YES TRAINING REMINDERS
" POSITIVE does not equal PERMISSIVE. This is the guiding principle of Say Yes Dog Training. You must be consistent. If a behaviour is acceptable at home (example the dog choosing not to lie down when told) it is also acceptable during work. Approach training and home life with a patient disposition and a strict application of what is and isn’t acceptable. Training happens 24 hours a day 7 days a week; your dog is always learning regardless if you are actively training or not!"

Lack of exercise of results in decreased impulse controls. The ol adage a tired dog is a good dog is still true today

Managing Your Dog’s Behavior

Tug of War
Dog owners have been admonished for decades to never play tug of war with their dogs because of the risk of it increasing aggression and/or dominance in the dog. Even many dog resource people such as breeders, trainers and veterinarians caution against this game. This is partly a failure to discriminate between agonistic behavior (conflict resolution & defensive aggression) and predatory behavior. Also, many people have issues about witnessing intensity. Intensity is not aggression, however.
Played with rules, tug-of-war is a tremendous predatory energy burner and good exercise for both dog and owner. It serves as a barometer of the kind of control you have over the dog, most importantly over his jaws. The game doesn't make the dog a predator: he already is one. The game is an outlet. It’s intense, increases dog focus and confidence and plugs into something very deep inside them. The big payoff is in lowered incidence of behavior problems due to understimulation...[/b]
Tieing a dog is one form a restaint that increases fustration levels and leads to a increased lack of impulse control. An overely large percentage of dog bites occured when the dog was tied. If you need such control crate confinement is a better alternative see;
Tying Dogs Out

other helpful links on the subject

Punishment: How not to do it

Jack Palance vs. Fred Astaire
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the responses, I agree that it may be too extreme a measure and that I simply need to go back to the basics and work more on establishing a solid foundation. I really need to work on her impulse control as stated above, and also limiting the reinforcement she usually gets from people when she jumps up, that will be a difficult one.
 

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limiting the reinforcement she usually gets from people when she jumps up, that will be a difficult one.[/b]
The easiest way to do this is limit her axcess to people to jump up either via a leash/crate or isolation. Then you can retrain quests on an individual basis.
 

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This is an old post, but in a search I found an e-collar thread so I had to chime in.

She did learn the tricks none the less.
It sounds like clicker training did work if she learned the tricks. It sounds like you wanted too much from her too soon (this is common).

as long as they are used correctly they seem to be pretty effective.
I have seen an e-collar's use justified in 1 case and it was because the dog's life was in danger (chased cars). The training was done by a professional, not a novice. Positive reinforcement training is a much better alternative...you don't risk injuring your dog, scaring your dog, making your dog aggressive, and you don't hurt the bond between you and your dog.

like teaching an alternative behavior like sit, asking for the sit in the presence of people, and straightforward corrections for failing to sit , using a training (chain) collar, leash and a sharp NO! if she fails to sit.
I agreed with you up to the point you recommended corrections. IMO, choke chains, prong collars, and e-collars used to train obedience or tricks is completely unnecessary. Why not use a method that has been proven to be more effective and has none of the negative side affects (ie. positive reinforcement)? If you have company over and the dog doesn't sit then ask your company to walk outside. Put the dog back into a sit, positively reward the behavior, and ask your company to come back in. If she gets up repeat over and over. She will learn if she breaks the sit (the unwanted behavior) causes the positive (people) to go away (punishment). This is referred to as negative punishment. What you're referring to (a sharp correction) is considered positive punishment.

I really need to work on her impulse control as stated above, and also limiting the reinforcement she usually gets from people when she jumps up, that will be a difficult one.
Ask family or friends to help. Have them come through the door and leave it she gets too excited.

The easiest way to do this is limit her axcess to people to jump up either via a leash/crate or isolation. Then you can retrain quests on an individual basis.
I would disagree with using a crate because crates should never be used to punish. I have had to put Snickers in a timeout 1 time and she was in there for about 1 minute. A timeout is a very temporary measure after you have tried everything else. I think removing the people will be easier than removing the dog. Less stress for everybody.
 

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Here is a good article on e-collars.

E-collars early use and conditioning.

By Wally "LCK" Hendricks

http://www.huntingbassets.com/articles/ecollars.pdf
I am a stark advocate for positive reinforcement training as opposed to positive punishment training. I read the article you posted and will respond to the parts individually. I would be open to having a health discussion if you are an advocate for e-collars.

The training collar itself will not ruin a dog if used properly.
The vast majority of people do not know how to apply aversives or corrections appropriately. Take a trip to Petsmart on a busy Saturday and that is clearly evident. I see owners yanking and yelling at their dog because the dog wants to sniff my dog or tries to grab a rawhide off the shelf. The dog doesn't know how to act and it's up to the owner to teach the dog proper behavior. If the owner just applies corrections the dog will never learn "proper" behavior.

The use of the electronic training collar has enabled us to deliver an immediate correction which falls well within that less than one second window in which a dog can make an association or "learn".
As with any correction, timing is critical and most people have horrible timing. Even with positive reinforcement people's timing are horrible. Beginners say "sit", dog sits, they reach in their pocket to get a treat, break it in half, give it to the dog, and by then the dog has no idea the treat is for sitting. As least with positive reinforcement a bad trainer gives a dog an extra treat and not an inappropriate correction.

Put the activated collar on the dog and either have him/her in a confined area or on a leash and starting at the lowest setting push the button.
And what if the dog was near a child? Or tree? Or was looking at you? The dog has likely learned whatever it was doing at that time elicited the shock.

With the button being pushed and the dog receiving a "negative"
stimulation, call him to you. The very instant the dog starts to come your way let off of the button. If the dog stops and turns away from you push the button and repeat the command. If the dog turns towards you turn it off.
This goes back to my timing statement. Even with a clicker (a completely benign stimulus) I accidentally click inappropriately. A trainer runs the risk here of poisoning the "come" cue with a negative stimulus.

This is a very relaxed and essentially non threatening way for a dog to learn.
How is this relaxed? Do what I say or get shocked? That sounds like a high stress condition to me. If my boss sat behind me and shocked me if I made a typo I'd be stressed...wouldn't you?

If properly introduced to the collar in the first place very few if any dogs will associate the collar itself with the prickling sensation and will not become what is commonly referred to as becoming collar wise.
I disagree. What do you do when the dog doesn't "sit" or "come" without the collar on? The collar is not supposed to be worn all the time so at some point the collar has to come off. If the dog doesn't listen and doesn't receive a shock the dog likely just became "collar wise".

Keep in mind that you are taking the dog through its basic obedience but again more importantly you are conditioning the dog to comply with the collars negative stimulation.
How would this trainer teach basic obedience if the e-collar comes later?

The e-collar should be put on the dog who is in training EVERY time the dog is allowed out of the kennel and commands are going to be given.
I don't keep my dogs in a kennel and I need my dog to behave all the time...not just when the collar is on.


Consider the following instead...
Shock Collar Risks

Despite advances in our understanding of dog behaviour and training, and the general move towards reward-based training techniques, some people still continue to recommend the use of punishment as the best method of training or dealing with behaviour problems. While shock collars can work to suppress behaviour, their use comes with unacceptable risks, and inevitably the underlying reasons for the problem behaviour are not dealt with. Even in experienced hands, it can be difficult to deliver shocks at the right moment and to predict the level of discomfort or pain experienced by a dog; in inexperienced hands the use of shock collars can often result in poorly timed intense electric shocks that induce fear and ongoing anxiety in the dog. Owners are often unaware of the high levels of pain that they may be causing their dog.
Aggression and Shock Collars

One of the most common behaviour problems encountered with dogs is that of aggression. In many cases, aggression is motivated by fear. When a dog is nervous or frightened, a natural behavioural strategy is to use aggression to get rid of the “threat”. Placing a shock collar on such a dog to stop it being aggressive can result in the dog becoming even more fearful of the situation, which can make the aggression more likely in the future. The use of a shock collar to try and stop aggressive behaviour can also suppress the warning signs displayed by a dog before it is aggressive, which can make the behaviour of the dog less predictable and more dangerous.
 

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You can hash out your arguments of e-collars and their use with the author.

I did't post the article to debate it as there will be some that do not agree with e-collars and their use and that is their prerogative -- Kinda like debates with the Animal Right Freaks, some are not worth wasting time debating. ....but there are some that do use e-collars or interested in using them so that is who it was shared for.

Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, what method do you use to break dogs of unwanted game, such as deer or fox? There are those that still run bassets in the field and nothing worse than a long deer race.............what method would you use for breaking bassets from running deer or unwanted game? Not an opinion of what method you think would work, but a proven method that works on breaking hounds from running offgame. I am always interested in new methods.
 

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Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, what method do you use to break dogs of unwanted game, such as deer or fox? There are those that still run bassets in the field and nothing worse than a long deer race.............what method would you use for breaking bassets from running deer or unwanted game? Not an opinion of what method you think would work, but a proven method that works on breaking hounds from running offgame. I am always interested in new methods.
I am not a hunter so my Basset is a companion dog and is not meant for working. I will train her to track, but purely for fun. That said, I understand Bassets are born to hunt and track and when they pick up a scent they can be very hard to recall. Mikey commented in my post regarding tricks that a solid recall is very important and I agree. The goal of a recall is to get the dog to come to the owner when called...with a solid recall you shouldn't need to break the dog from unwanted game or teach the dog deer scent is bad.

If I was going to use my Basset for hunting I would skip the sit, down, roll over, spin, fetch, shake, etc that I am teaching my pup and spend the entire time establishing a solid recall. One where she would come to me no matter what. I know positive reinforcement can be used here, the downside is that it takes longer than an e-collar. A lot of owners want results now...not next week. I would practice with her on a lead, among various animals, with various scents, etc until she would come to me every time. Then, and only then, would I consider her "field ready" and take her hunting.

If I want her to follow rabbit as opposed to deer, I would train her to track a given scent.

I hope this helps.
 

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First, just because a dog is used for hunting does not mean it can not be a companion dog as well. Many hunting dogs are companion dogs and taught companion "tricks" to boot. Example: The Daily Drool Message Boards :: Login

with a solid recall you shouldn't need to break the dog from unwanted game or teach the dog deer scent is bad.
Unfortunately, training for recall to break hounds from running offgame rarely rarely rarely works.

Remember, I had asked you to post a method that is a proven method, not a method that you think may work. Anyone can have an opinion on what "might" work........I am interested in opinions that "will" work.

I been around coonhounds alot longer that I been around bassets.......Both are still hounds and both can be trashy and want to bump off game and may need to be broke of offgame. The same principle of trash breaking applies the same to the different hound hunting breeds -- coonhounds, bassets, beagles, and etc....

Ask most any experienced hound hunter how effective training for recall is in breaking hounds of running off wanted games.

Wish it was really that easy to break a trashy hound by just calling the hound in when it bumps (chases) trash (offgame).

Fact is, there are even some that no matter what, will not be broke from trash running........even when trained with e-collar.

Kinda like the habitual criminal --- in prison more that out, never learns their lesson from prison sentences and seems to be one of those un-rehabilitated criminals.
 

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Basset Hounds are hard to train and they don't train by usual methods. I don't think the shock collar will be effective. Basset Hounds have to be trained with lots of love and patience! Good Luck!
 

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E-collars are very effective in training bassets (or hounds for that matter) not to run offgame.
The use of punishment does have it place and one of those is to preserve the life of the animal. Running off game is a potential life threatening behavior for a hound. and as such the use of puinishmenta appropriate. Same goes to some other life threatening train such as rattle snake aversion etc.

If correctly appied it is not something that needs to be done often. but the problem with aversive in training is they are rarely used poperly. First the idea of ramping up and averisive is bad. All that happen is the dogs become conditioned to the adversive and simple continues on despite it.

the following article is on a "clicker Training Site" and writhen by one of the godfathers of clicker training

On Punishment
When I have really punished, and that means REAL positive punishment, it was always to save lives, property, or some other such reason. I would never think of using positive punishment for anything like standard obedience training. ...
If we are talking about dogs risking their lives and the lives of the handler under wartime conditions, I would not hesitate to take that extra step to punish an error, rather than to rely on positive reinforcement alone. Now, I initially got the wanted behavior using R+ and reduced to negligible levels unwanted behavior using extinction, BUT, for the dog's and the handler's sakes, at the end I add that final, and VERY extreme use of punishment, to be absolutely sure that the animal will not, under any circumstance, commit error.
When I punished, the maximum I EVER had to apply it was three times, and usually once was enough. Mind you, out of the many thousands of animals we have trained during many hundreds of training programs, we punished about a dozen times. The fact that I would do this at all disqualifies me from the ranks of what people call "clicker trainers." I don't mind. I have a clear conscience. I believe I did the best for animal and human kind.


Keep in mind when talking about runing off game we get into the area of instinctual drift which is difficult to control simply with positive reinforcement
Instinctive Drift

Shock collar when used correctly are effective, When not, they are not effective. as often seen in the resitivism rate of anti bark collars.' But, nothing else has the demonstrated effectiveness of a shock collar when it comes to running off game, or similar scent track dangers like rattles snakes etc.

Unfortunately, training for recall to break hounds from running offgame rarely rarely rarely works
One reason for this is the need for the hound to work independantly with out human intervention is contrary to a bomb proof recall, It is difficult to impossible to get both. Also the time required for develpoing the bomb proof recall would proclude traing the hound it is prime learn period the skill need to hunt effectively. No real danger of hunting off game and the need of recall if you can't get the hound to hunt anything in the first place.
 

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The use of punishment does have it place and one of those is to preserve the life of the animal. Running off game is a potential life threatening behavior for a hound. and as such the use of puinishmenta appropriate. Same goes to some other life threatening train such as rattle snake aversion etc.
Thanks for the clarification! I didn't think running after a deer or rabbit was life threatening, but your explanation clarified that! :)

If correctly appied it is not something that needs to be done often. but the problem with aversive in training is they are rarely used poperly. First the idea of ramping up and averisive is bad. All that happen is the dogs become conditioned to the adversive and simple continues on despite it.
Again, thanks for another take on this. This was what I was trying to convey, but was doing it poorly. I agree that aversive training is rarely used properly and more damage can be done with an incorrect correction than an incorrect treat.

I thought about this concept last night during Snickers' walk. I saw a yard with flags up for an invisible fence and thought that fence will work sometimes, but if that dog really wants to get at my dog that fence is not going to stop it. It may even make that dog aggressive towards my dog...dog approaches gets an aversive...dog thinks "that dog hurt me!".

Keep in mind when talking about runing off game we get into the area of instinctual drift which is difficult to control simply with positive reinforcement
Instinctive Drift
Interesting...now I know why Snickers shakes her head with certain toys. :)

First, just because a dog is used for hunting does not mean it can not be a companion dog as well. Many hunting dogs are companion dogs and taught companion "tricks" to boot. Example: The Daily Drool Message Boards :: Login
I never said they can't be companion dogs, I was just stating my current condition. Guide dogs make great companions, herding dogs are a shepherd's best friend, and bomb sniffing dogs are great partners. The point I was trying to make here was my primary focus for training is obedience and tricks and not hunting.

I was unable to view the link you posted. :(

Remember, I had asked you to post a method that is a proven method, not a method that you think may work. Anyone can have an opinion on what "might" work........I am interested in opinions that "will" work.

Fact is, there are even some that no matter what, will not be broke from trash running........even when trained with e-collar.
Mikey stated e-collars are more effective at hunting off game than any other method, and I am more inclined to see this as an acceptable training method (only in experienced hands) only because this could be a life threatening situation for the dog. But these 2 statements are a contradiction...even e-collars do not guarantee success.

Remember the original poster asked about using an e-collar for being too excited around people (basic obedience). My dog loves people and dogs and I think her "no fear" attitude is wonderful and I would never use or suggest the use of any sort of aversive to change that.
 

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Thanks for the clarification! I didn't think running after a deer or rabbit was life threatening, but your explanation clarified that!
:)

A dog chasing off game can and often are considered dangerious wheather that game is a farm animal or a deer and shot by animal control, game warden etc.

Idaho Dog Law
C) Any dog found running at large and which is actively tracking, pursuing, harassing, attacking or killing deer or any other big game animal may be destroyed without criminal or civil liability by the director, or any peace officer, or other persons authorized to enforce the Idaho fish and game law
Minnesota: Dogs harassing deer can be shot
The Minnesota DNR says it's okay for property owners to shoot dogs running loose that are seen harassing deer or other wildlife. [/url]


Table of State andFederal Laws Concerning Dogs Chasing Wildlife


Mikey stated e-collars are more effective at hunting off game than any other method, and I am more inclined to see this as an acceptable training method (only in experienced hands) only because this could be a life threatening situation for the dog. But these 2 statements are a contradiction...even e-collars do not guarantee success.
The success or failure rate of any method of training is limited by the suitableness of the method and skill of the paractitioner. Because a method fails in a particular incident is not an inditement of the method.

Given the risks of doing nothing, using and adversive like and e-collar in these types of situation is appropriate. Of course learning how to do so effectively is part of the equation as well.

Why not use a method that has been proven to be more effective and has none of the negative side affects (ie. positive reinforcement)? Why not use a method that has been proven to be more effective and has none of the negative side affects (ie. positive reinforcement)?
Care to back that claim with sicentific bases evidence that postive reinforcemen t is more effective than the use of negative reinforcement, or negative punishment or positive punishment? or a combination of techniques.
 

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Obviously the parent should never had let a kid go up to a strange dog unattended, but never the less I wasn't close enough to stop her.
I think the first mistake here was tying Libby to the fence and leaving her unattended. That was just asking for trouble. Aside for possibly biting a kid or licking him to death, I'd worry more about her getting tangled and hanging herself. I've heard of too many dogs dying from getting caught or tangled. :( Next time use a crate or x-pen. Those collapsible fabric crates are great, providing they don't chew.

I have taken her to training classes (clicker) and the entire time she would whine because she only wanted to play with the other dogs. She did learn the tricks none the less.
Tricks are fine but has Libby had a basic obedience class where they've used lots of distractions? I'd suggest a class or if you've already done the basics, a class with a different instructor.

What do you guys think of using these? I know most people believe they are inhumane, but as long as they are used correctly they seem to be pretty effective.
Libby sounds like a normal happy basset to me and not in need of shock treatment! I'm not against the use of these devices but certainly not in her case and only in the hands of someone very experienced in dog training or when someone receives instuction in their use from a trainer/behaviorist.

Mikey T, Sharon and Betsy are tops in basset obedience and other performance event training and know what they're talking about so you've come to the right place for advice!

Welcome to Cyberhound!

Barbara



[/quote]
 

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:)
Care to back that claim with sicentific bases evidence that postive reinforcemen t is more effective than the use of negative reinforcement, or negative punishment or positive punishment? or a combination of techniques.
I'm not sure how familiar you all with all the differences between the 4 styles, so I'm going to talk about some basics so I can include everyone in the discussion. :)

A brief review of Operant Condition would be helpful.

P+: Positive punishment: the addition of a stimulus meant to stop unwanted behavior (ie. a swift jerk of a joke chain).

P-: Negative punishment: the removal of a stimulus meant to stop unwanted behavior (ie. you turn your back and remove your attention).

R+: Positive reinforcement: the addition of a stimulus meant to reinforce a behavior (ie. a treat for sitting).

R-: Negative reinforcement: the removal of a stimulus meant to reinforce a behavior (ie. stopping the e-collar from vibrating/tickling/shocking).

When I refer to R+ training I am really talking about the combination of R+ and P- methodologies. There are those that believe only in R+, but that discussion is for another day. I'd like to limit this to my viewpoint since that was what you were asking me to back with evidence.

So we are clear, P- (even though it is punishment) does not inflict any sort of aversive stimulus to the dog. The way to effectively apply P- is you remove a stimulus the dog finds positive...such as turning your back when the dog jumps up, ignoring the dog if it whines in a crate, or removing friends from a room if the dog gets too excited. None of these methods impose any stimulus on the dog. The idea here is that when your attention is removed for the dog jumping up, the dog calms down, and you shower the dog with affection it will learn that jumping up gets nothing but being calm gets praised.

Extinction follows this pattern.

Now to back up my claim that the combination of R+ and P- is more effective than R- and P+ comes down to several criteria. Do you believe professional dog trainers? Do you trust the ASPCA and Humane Society? Do you only believe what you have experienced first hand?

In my mind I do what logically makes sense to me and what I find convincing.

Am I saying hitting your dog with a newspaper when it jumps up on you will not work? Of course it will, it will make the dog stop jumping up on you as well as the dog will stop coming to you, potentially feel scared of you, and potentially become aggressive. So by stopping 1 behavior you have inadvertently stopped other behaviors, some of which could be desirable. Maybe my choice of words was misleading, but evidence shows that R+ is more effective in training a specific behavior without inadvertent consequences. If your only goal is to stop or train 1 behavior P+ will work very well, but that in an unrealistic goal. We all want our dogs to be able to perform a series of commands.

Dog Training Methods
Using punishment to the point that a dog urinates or defecates, using choke chains to lift dogs off their feet or hang them or continuing to give repeated collar corrections for minutes after the misbehavior has occurred are not appropriate training procedures but abusive treatment.

It is difficult to abuse a dog using positive reinforcement. At worst, using positive reinforcement incorrectly can teach undesirable behavior; using aversive methods incorrectly can
Why I Switched to Positive Training
Guidelines on the Use of Punishment for Dealing with Behavior Problems in Animals (Pay particular attention to page #3)
Punishment:problems & Principles for Effective Use

I will close with this...

We all learned to read, write our names, do basic math, and go on the potty when we were young. How we you taught? Did you parents yell at you or smack you when you didn't do it right? Or did they praise you when you got it right and that made you want to do it right again? We humans have a higher level of thinking than a dog so you'd think that reason and the threat of punishment would be enough, yet we still train ourselves with R+.
 

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Found this when looking for something else...

Good Choices in Dog Training

The problem with traditional training is that it is based on expunging all of the natural dog behaviors with punishment. Pulling on the leash? Punished. Getting up when told to stay? Punished. Eating garbage? Punished. When a dog sees that he has no choice, and will be punished for a particular behavior, he will avoid that behavior. Just the same as we will avoid exceeding the legal speed limit only if we think a cop is there to catch us. If there’s no cop to catch us, we can get away with the bad behavior.


It irks me when people say that their dog does something bad because “he knows he can get away with it.,” particularly the people who have TRAINED their dog to look for opportunities to “get away” with something by using punishment as their training method. A “ringwise” dog that breaks the stay “because he knows you can’t punish him” isn’t being spiteful. The dog isn’t staying because he LIKES to. He’s not staying because it is a naturally pleasant doggie behavior. Far from it! He’s only staying because the threat of punishment exists. When that threat is momentarily taken away, the “rules are off” (just like the posted speed limit), and he takes advantage. Don’t blame the dog... YOU are the one that chose punishment as a training method!
 
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