[Muriah]

Hi everyone!
I am new to this page and a new basset mom. I have a 13 week old basset hound named Hubert. I lost my Dachshund/German Shepard, Goliath, last year, and when I saw this sweet pup, I fell in love and felt that he was meant for me. The puppy stage has been what I expected and all that goes with it, the peeing, chewing, biting, etc. We have been doing great and enjoying the training, play, and sleep time. Still figuring things out and getting in a routine, but it’s definitely coming along! I am hoping to get some feedback, as I’m not sure what is the best method to handle what I think Hubert is doing at times, which is back-talking me? His play bites have been pretty intense and I was trying the bite inhibition method to yelp, leave the room for 30-60 seconds, come back and continue. Sometimes I think it’s effective and he lets up, but others he sinks his teeth in and shakes his head. The last week or so he’s been improving with the play biting, but now I noticed on 3 separate occasions, if I’m asking him or making him do something he doesn’t like, he growls a bit and has whipped his head around to bite me and has. Example, I had him outside and it was time to go in, he was in the yard just ignoring me, which is to be expected. I went to pick him up to take him in and he was irritated because he didn’t want to go in. When I picked him up he growled, snapped his head to the side and but my arm. It doesn’t seem to be aggressive, but more like, “I don’t want to go in and I don’t want you to make me.” Has anyone had any experience with this and if so, what do I do?
Thank you all!

 

[Mikey T]

yelp, leave the room for 30-60 seconds,

The only reason to leave the room is if he won't settle and stop biting. other wise the yelp should suffice. Leaving the room every time he bites is going to create bonding and trust issues as you are becoming unreliable and a bit flakey in the dogs eyes.

when working on bite inhibition you need to cognitive of the concept of threshold. there are times the dog will get so overstimulate it can not learn and thing. you need to keep the bite inhibition training below threshold so a yelp suffices and you do not need to leave the room.

Understanding Thresholds: It's More than Under- or Over-

It is hard to know exactly where the sweet spot is, where learning and thinking occur. Understanding the Stimulus Gradient (SG) helps handlers recognize a dog's thresholds and make good decisions in any situation.

suzanneclothier.com

5 Things to Know About A Dog's Threshold - Whole Dog Journal

Whole Dog Journal‘s mission is to provide dog guardians with in-depth information on dog food, training, behavior, health, and more.

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https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3026102870987448

When I picked him up

Picking the dog up is not a long term solution to non-compliance At best being physical with the dog only teach the dog being physical is a proper response to something you do not want . How Much Does Your Dog's Cooperation Weigh? - suzanneclothier

I had him outside and it was time to go in, he was in the yard just ignoring me, which is to be expected

no it is not to be expected it is nature of the relationship you have with this particular dog which is not great. I would not be leaving the dog out in the yard not on a leash unless he will respond to recall and your presence. and you need on building the relationship

Susan Garrett’s Crate Games Online - DogsThat

Susan Garrett's "Crate Games" is for puppies, rescue dogs, adult dogs and dog sports. Extensively used and recommended by dog care professionals worldwide.

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Ruff Love: A Relationship Building Program for You and Your Dog: Susan Garrett: 9781892694065: Amazon.com: Books

Ruff Love: A Relationship Building Program for You and Your Dog [Susan Garrett] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Ruff Love: A Relationship Building Program for You and Your Dog

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Aggression & Some Reasons Behind It

The wide range of behaviors labeled as aggression are communications from the dog to us. Dogs do not snap, snarl, growl, or bite without reason, and those reasons can range from feeling afraid to being confidently challenging.

suzanneclothier.com

Lack of handler leadership Typical symptoms: Dog may actively resist being forced or even gently modeled into position by handler (i.e. tucked into sit or down) by growling, snapping, biting, or by wrestling, pushing handler away with feet, mouthing handler’s arms & hands. The dog is saying that handler has not earned
the right to handle him in such ways. Do NOT force the issue but find reasonable
compromise in class situation, and if at home, back off and find a way to gain voluntary submission (use of lure?) to avoid conflicts. Emphasize work on controlling resources at home to gain leadership & respect.

Overstimulation Typical symptoms: The excessive stimulation may come from the collar or lead, the handler, corrections, the overall environment, other dogs or animals. Solution: Remove dog to a “cool down zone” that offers a visual barrier and/or much more distance from other dogs/animals; reduce sensory input to the dog with quieter handling, less or no corrections, switch equipment to something milder, or change between equipment as necessary in any given situation (i.e., may need prong collar or slip when in motion but work better on slip or buckle in quieter exercises)

Many mouthy dogs respond to over stimulation by grabbing at the handler’s arms, hands, legs, feet, clothing, lead, etc. This is often not aggression but a
response to too much stimuli; attempts to use force or corrections only pour fuel on
the fire. Work quietly and reward good behavior – careful not to use physical praise,
big/fast hand movements or excited voice.

Conversations with Uncontrollable and Untrainable Dogs #77

Does your dog sometimes seem to be out of control? Do you sometimes think your dog is untrainable? Does your dog not appear to listen to you? I believe that ...

www.youtube.com

The vast majority of basset hounds are really soft dog, Traditional old school training methods do not work very well with soft dogs. Hard and Soft Dogs – DogTraining.World

 

[Mikey T]

How sensitive is your Basset

We are newbies to this dog ownership, I have not had a dog since I was in my early teens. So as I ramble on with this post I apologise if I appear to be teaching grandma how to suck eggs. Nevertheless I find dog psychology quite fasinating. To my mind there are two glaring anomolies. The...

www.basset.net

from my wife

Here it is, it's from the writings of a houndsman in the late 1800s:

Let me advise any one trying Bassets for hunting not to attempt to teach them with the whip and harsh words, as they are very sensitive, and easily frightened, and in some cases never forget a thrashing. Headstrong they certainly are, and fond of their own way - but this failing must be put up with; to those who know the breed they are not hard to manage, with a little tact.

It was in the book by George Johnston.

 

[MomosMum]

Woah! What you are seeing would suggest he's fear biting and there is no way forward with a hound who starts this. The quote from George Johnston's book says it all re being sensitive and easily frightened. Re being outside and not coming in - is your place properly fenced because with mine, if I get stupid nonsense like that, I shut them out, keeping an eye on what they are doing of course. You'll probably find once he doesn't see you there, he'll come rushing to the door to find you.

For play biting - I have found yelping only makes some dogs more 'wound up'. Stand up, say No Biting! but instead of yelping, if it doesn't work!, take him outside to empty and back to his bed. End the playing! He'll soon learn that some actions bring unwanted reactions, from you. Bassets are not daft and IMO, for all of this, make them think what you want was their idea! In other words, change your approach.

 

[Muriah]

Hi TeazelsMum, thank you for your feedback. No my place isn’t fenced in. I have walked away and into the house, where I could still see him, and he comes running to the porch. Should I continue to try that? What do you mean there’s no way forward with fear biting? Will he always do this?

 

[Mikey T]

Shyness is the only personality trait has a puppy that is consistent in to adulthood because it tends to be self rewarding, as for Fear biting being an issue long term that goes back to how effectively you can train bite inhibition. Obviously the dogs behavior when being picked up is because he did not want to be Without other context and situations it is impossible to asceses the motivation for the behavior which is why I provide you with the link on aggression, . .

 

[MomosMum]

Hi TeazelsMum, thank you for your feedback. No my place isn’t fenced in. I have walked away and into the house, where I could still see him, and he comes running to the porch. Should I continue to try that? What do you mean there’s no way forward with fear biting? Will he always do this?

No, I'm sorry I shouldn't have said there is no way forward when there is fear biting. That's wrong I should have said the way forward will be difficult if he's already gone to what may be fear biting. Starting with avoiding the situations he's clearly not able to cope with (for eg. no picking up)

Do you have his breeder to talk to and perhaps come and see what's going on? Or even another knowledgeable Basset person?

 

[Mikey T]

There is a big distinction between teaching hite inhibition and teaching the puppy not to bite or mouth. First off teach a do not to bite or mouth is not needed, All dogs as the mature to adult natural become less mouthy. there are distinct phases to this a young puppy the mouth is the exploratory tool for understanding the world, at around 20 weeks and the adult teeth come in the mouthing will ramp up again and again in the 10-13 month range when second molars come in. Teaching the puppy not to bite accomplishes nothing What we need to teach is the if they bite not to bite hard. This subtle difference is what i find lacking in most people that use the leave the dog approach It simply takes to much time and the punishment to severe for the puppy that it ends up training not to bite at all vs not to bite hard.

When the yelp does not work and excites the dog 90% of the time the problem is not the yelp but the actions afterward I see this with kids all the time They yelp but continue engaging with the dog pushing them away. acting with quick jerky motions that signal it is all just play and the puppy natural ramps up the yelp need to be accompanied with disengagement simply turn your head, moving you hand away slowly. . Almost immediately try and reengage with the dog but do so slowly if the dog try's to play instead of remain calm and let you pet with draw your hand slowly and try again a few seconds later the dog quickly will learn to calm itself quickly to get attention the you pet the dogs head let it suck and nibble on you finger and only yelp when the bite is hard. Over time you slowly decrease the the pressure that you allow. and eventual no mouthing at all. but if you have to leave the rooms reach time there is not enough time to get all the training needed in. You need to learn to be able to keep the dog below the overexcited threshold where no learn can occur. this is critical and why I supplied so many links.

The other reason I have seen the yelp not work is it mimic the sound of wounded animal that engages the prey drive of the dog. Changing the tone of the yelp can often eliminate inducing that response, The reason for the yelp besides mimicking how dogs play is it serves as a marker for the exact behavior that cause the consequence of you withdrawal. When the puppy is playing with you and it bites to hard it is doing other things as well at or near the same time could be scratching or batting you with the feet, growling, etc so when there is not a clear marker of a particular behavior it will take the puppy much longer time to figure out exactly what is the problem behavior, BUt they will figure it out. You can do all the above without the yelp and train bite inhibition if the yelp itself is the issue it is generally less efficient .but all dogs are different and even if in the same context most dogs do one thing there will be some for the opposite reaction occurs and you need to train based on the dog you have not the stereotypical dog..

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Insights into Puppy Mouthing

https://www.siriuspup.com/files/blueprints/08PuppyBiting.pdf

 

[Muriah]

Shyness is the only personality trait has a puppy that is consistent in to adulthood because it tends to be self rewarding, as for Fear biting being an issue long term that goes back to how effectively you can train bite inhibition. Obviously the dogs behavior when being picked up is because he did not want to be Without other context and situations it is impossible to asceses the motivation for the behavior which is why I provide you with the link on aggression, . .

I did read that link, as well as the others. Thanks so much! I wanted to report, the biting has gotten alot better. I think we are starting to understand each other better. I allow him to mouth me, but when he starts to press down, I just say “ouch, too hard.” He will either let up or I give him a toy. I also noticed he does this most when he’s really tired. So I hold his tether toy for him in his bed while he’s setting in.

 

[Muriah]

No, I'm sorry I shouldn't have said there is no way forward when there is fear biting. That's wrong I should have said the way forward will be difficult if he's already gone to what may be fear biting. Starting with avoiding the situations he's clearly not able to cope with (for eg. no picking up)

Do you have his breeder to talk to and perhaps come and see what's going on? Or even another knowledgeable Basset person?

Haha no worries! It’s definitely getting better. And I did want to mention, I pick him up a lot and he’s only done this twice. Both situations were when he didn’t want to come in. What I started doing is either getting him to follow me by standing in front of him, saying come with a treat and we do this all the way to the steps, or getting him excited about going in for water or his bone. I still have picked him up a few times to come in, but mainly early in the morning, and he hasn’t done it since. The play biting has gotten sooo much better as well! I think we are understanding each other more everyday. 😊

 

[Muriah]

Haha no worries! It’s definitely getting better. And I did want to mention, I pick him up a lot and he’s only done this twice. Both situations were when he didn’t want to come in. What I started doing is either getting him to follow me by standing in front of him, saying come with a treat and we do this all the way to the steps, or getting him excited about going in for water or his bone. I still have picked him up a few times to come in, but mainly early in the morning, and he hasn’t done it since. The play biting has gotten sooo much better as well! I think we are understanding each other more everyday. 😊

I give him the treat each time he comes a certain distance and tell him good boy. Sometimes I just give him a pat and say good boy and then every other time, a treat.

 

[Soundtrack]

I did read that link, as well as the others. Thanks so much! I wanted to report, the biting has gotten alot better. I think we are starting to understand each other better. I allow him to mouth me, but when he starts to press down, I just say “ouch, too hard.” He will either let up or I give him a toy. I also noticed he does this most when he’s really tired. So I hold his tether toy for him in his bed while he’s setting in.

I may be miss reading what you wrote and /or meant but I would not be giving him his toy if me does not let up. that can quicky escalate to if i bite mum to hard repeatedly I get the toy. so you inadvertently taught him if he wants his toy the way to get it is to bite mum hard enough to let her know.

the second part provide the opportunity to practice tug with proper rules and to give you the tug,

 

[Soundtrack]

I give him the treat each time he comes a certain distance and tell him good boy. Sometimes I just give him a pat and say good boy and then every other time, a treat.

If you are going to be variable on the food reward you want to be variable not a fixed pattern ie every other time. human pattern quickly when trying to be variable and the dogs pick up on it and respond accordingly. Yew being variable will provide a stronger behavior in the end just be sure it is truly variable and you can also vary the value of the food reward as well from kibble to something he find highly tasty.

the other thing is where are you reward him when he comes. Most people do it right in front of them and this can be problematic. If the reward zone is directly in fron of you that is the spot the dog is always going to gravitate toward and therefore always in you way. If you walk the dog often or plan to rewarding at your side where you want the dog to be while walking is a good place to reward/ basically at your side head at approximately knee height. If you are thing a dog sport or activity that you need the dog to be equally comfortable on either side of you then reward both side but indicate to the dog with you hand which side the should come to

RZ For Dog Sports (Don't Leave Home Without It) | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

Understanding the Reinforcement Zone is one of the KEYS for success in dog sport! Your dog being by your side because he wants to be there is going to exponentially increase your joy and performance in the sport as a team.

susangarrettdogagility.com

‎Shaped by Dog with Susan Garrett: Why Mastering Reinforcement Is The Linchpin To Reinforcement Based Dog Training #196 on Apple Podcasts

‎Show Shaped by Dog with Susan Garrett, Ep Why Mastering Reinforcement Is The Linchpin To Reinforcement Based Dog Training #196 - Feb 22, 2023

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Muriah]

I may be miss reading what you wrote and /or meant but I would not be giving him his toy if me does not let up. that can quicky escalate to if i bite mum to hard repeatedly I get the toy. so you inadvertently taught him if he wants his toy the way to get it is to bite mum hard enough to let her know. the second part provide the opportunity to practice tug with proper rules and to give you the tug,

Hi! I do not give him the toy if he doesn’t let up. I just give him the toy if I can tell he’s going to start play biting, showing him what he can bite. He’s really good at a game of tug and we are learning drop it on command ☺