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Discussion Starter #1
On another board, one for Labs, a guy posted a photo essay of his recent duck hunting trip and photos of one of his dogs who had cut himself to bits forcing his way through ice to retrieve said dead ducks. He expressed amazement that "ice could cut." I posted a reply that said, essentially, I don't approve of hunting or of sending a dog into ice water to injure himself for a human's hobby. I put it a bit more diplomatically than that, however. So he posts a nasty rant to the effect that I'm an idiot and obviously don't know what "dawgs" are put on this earth to do (he always spells it that way).

I guess I'm just looking for people who understand that some of us have dogs for companionship and to love and pamper and wouldn't dream of forcing them to swim in ice water and cut themselves into bloody rags for our entertainment. I'm surprised the dog didn't get frostbite and you would have been horrified at his injuries. His chest, his legs, his tummy, his face and his neck were all torn to shreds. But he's a Lab, so he's meant to do this, and he "loves" it, according to the reprobate. He loves swimming in ice and chopping himself up? He might love pleasing his human; I'm sure he does. I'll bet he doesn't love freezing and bleeding. But several people agreed with HIM, that of course Labs are meant to do this and a "working" dog is different and blah, blah, blah.
 

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Wow. How sad.

Though I don't necessarily have an issue with dogs being used for hunting, per se, putting the dog's life and health at risk is totally unacceptable. :angry:

I think next time "dawg's" dad should have to swim through the ice for the duck, if it's so important to him.
 

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I bet the Lab loved every minute of it to be honest.

They're a fantastic breed and buddy. Retrieving is their thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
We have a Lab and she doesn't seem at all inclined to retrieve but even if she was, I wouldn't send her into ice water on a cold December day.
 
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Having a pack of "discard dogs" mostly bred for illegal hunting, I'm certainly not a fan of hunting with dogs, especially for "sport".

Mine are all pampered pets, and they all have baggage from their former lives.
 

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I don't approve of hunting [/b]
Sounds like a bias that will prevent youi from understanding the "working dog" .

1. A dog does not nor ever has worked "to please and owner". A dog that works under the cues and commands of an owner does so because in the dogs belief it is in its best interest to do so. The dog works for the owner for whats in it for the dog, treats, praise, pets, socialization/companionship, fun/play etc.

2. dog once they domesticated themselves or purhaps as part of the domestication were selevtively bred for physical as well as instictual traits. Herding breeds herd, Retrievers retrieve, scent hounds track and sight hounds chase. While there are exceptions to any general rule dogs enjoy doing what they were originally bred to do. Not unlike boxers of football players that are happiest when playing the sport, a sport were injury and even death ocur.

3. Dogs are happiest when they have a dog job to do. This perhaps is the hardest concept to accept for "companion dog owners" . Jobs of course do not necessarily mean earning money but a physical and mental task that is routinely ask of the dog, dog sports such as obedience, agility, tracking fall into this catorgory as more tradional jobs of hunting, herding, sled pulling, herd guarding, guide dog, contriban detection etc. When those that have had both companion only pets/animals and dogs trained to do a job to a person say this, I tend to believe there is something to it.



"I'm surprised the dog didn't get frostbite and you would have been horrified at his injuries. His chest, his legs, his tummy, his face and his neck were all torn to shreds."
Labs, goldens and other retrievers were bred to work in "icy" water. The coat offers guite a lot of protection. Dog do and can died from hypotermia and/or frostbite however such exposure takes exponential longer time than it would for a human. Take sled dog races where dogs run for days in below zero conditions with no shelter. There only protection is there high metablism and a very high caloric/high fat diet. Trying to assess the extent of injuries from photos is not ussually very acurate. Many superfical wounds will bleed profusely making the injury worse than it looks and the opposite can equally be true, a potentially deadly puncture would may hardly bleed at all.

4. The human is the guardian of the health and well being of the dog, In general it is unethical, abusive, even some times criminal to but a dog in a stituation that the likely outcome is injury or death without some overriding factor such as the health and safety of a human. It is also important to remember than any endeavor is not without risk. A basset tracking a rabbit is often cut while tracking through briars, there are the rare ocassions that one may be accidentally shot. As you see the same is true of retrieve. Where one draws the line fair minded individuals can disagree.

"He expressed amazement that 'ice could cut.' " Let's hope the owner takes this new found knowledge of the potention for injury and the type of injury that occurs when asking the dog to retrieve again, selecting a hunting location, or where to send the dog on a retrieve from.

Wow. How sad.

Though I don't necessarily have an issue with dogs being used for hunting, per se, putting the dog's life and health at risk is totally unacceptable. :angry:
[/b]
Now I'm confused don't drive to the vet because a dog is more likely to be killed in an car accident than being shot hunting? Hunting is ok but should be done because hunters are known to shoot one another.
The question is always one of risk assessment and mitigation. Just because someone that was not there and without all the facts might believe that injury or death was likely, does not make it so. Missing key information I personally refrain form making such an assesment.
 

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We have a Lab and she doesn't seem at all inclined to retrieve
[/b]
Alright, but I've never seen one that wouldn't love to fetch.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Mikey, with all due respect, you didn't see the photos of this dog. He was cut to ribbons. He wasn't just nicked or scratched. He had deep, open wounds. Which the hunter in question planned to stitch himself and I doubt he intends to use anesthetic.
 

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Some links on the topic

"Drives" Theory

The Canine Working Class
In fact, most working dogs relish their jobs. "The profession they’re in is riskier than being a pet, but the types of dogs brought into this work all seem to enjoy it. The training all revolves around play," said Dr. McNamara. Drug-sniffing dogs are trained by searching for a toy, he explained. So a dog poring through a car in search of marijuana or cocaine experiences the same thrill it gets when searching for its favorite squeaky toy.

"We can’t get into the minds of these dogs, but when I put dogs on exercise restriction [to rest an injury or other problem], they get really unhappy when ‘Dad’ leaves for work without them," Dr. McNamara added.


In other words, work just isn’t work for working dogs. "[Police dogs] do a huge service most people can’t appreciate, and they love their work," said Dr. McNamara. "When it comes to working dogs, there’s a public misconception because they don’t realize what the dogs’ purposes are."[/b]
Labrador Retrievers
The main characteristics of Labradors are their coat, tail, head and
temperament. They have a double coat: a soft, downy undercoat that
keeps them dry and warm in cold water and a hard outer coat that helps
them repel water.

...In the U.S., there are two distinct "lines" of Labradors: field lines
and show lines. Field line Labradors have been bred with an emphasis
on field or hunting ability, and show line Labradors have been bred
with an emphasis on conformation and temperament. There is some
dissension between the two groups, with field people claiming that
show lines have lost much of their hunting and retrieving abilities,
and show people claiming that field lines do not much look like
Labradors any more and lack correct temperament. The truth is likely
somewhere in between.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
All right, never mind. You don't understand after all. I do have a Lab, by the way. She's lying on the living room floor chewing on a tennis ball. My point wasn't that dogs in general or Labs in particular don't enjoy romping around and chasing things and being useful. For a professional writer, I seem to have failed utterly to make myself understood. So just forget the whole thing.
 

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I'm having a hard time understanding your concern. You're upset that a dog had enough instinct to injury itself? And somehow we should change the breed and keep them indoors to prevent this?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
No ... First, I vehemently oppose hunting for sport. If you eat what you kill, I have no problem with it. But people who hunt for trophies or entertainment make me want to scream. Second, I was upset that this dog was sent into ice, which he had to break with his own body, in order to retrieve the ducks his person had shot for entertainment. Then the man posted photos of the dog, who was badly hurt, who was running a fever and bleeding and swelling, and was proud of what he (the man) had done. LOOK! I trained my dog so well he'll half kill himself if I tell him to! He had no plans to visit a vet. This was a "working" dog and as such, its injuries were not important except as a badge of honor. That's equivalent to pit bull or **** fighting. The more scars, the better!

Using dogs for lifesaving, for leading the blind or alerting when an epileptic seizure is imminent, for turning on light switches and fetching the phone for someone in a wheelchair, for drug-sniffing, for search and rescue, for herding sheep or cattle, or any of the useful things that they can be taught to do, or putting them into agility competition, or whatever, is not what I object to. I object to treating the dog as if its pain and suffering are of no consequence.

I once had a dog who threw herself between me and another dog who attacked me. She fought that dog until she was horribly injured, with me (foolishly, I realize) trying to break them apart, and when I finally did get them apart and the other dog started at me again Daisy, who couldn't even stand, managed to raise her head enough to grab the other dog's ear and pull her back. If Daisy hadn't been there, that dog might have hurt me badly or even killed me. But when it was over, I took her to the vet and I took care of her until she was well, and every time I saw the scars she got protecting me, I felt awful -- and grateful -- that she had done that for my sake. I cannot understand how you could look at your injured, bleeding, broken dog and crow about it. Especially when the injuries were sustained for no good reason.
 

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I don't know why we are now talking about your feelings on hunting.

I don't know why you believe the dog was "forced" to retrieve. I think you're hysterically putting emotions on the Lab. I've seen male deer so in rut that they rubbed the skin on the inside of their legs off from mating. That was their own choice.
 

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I don't know why we are now talking about your feelings on hunting.


[/b]

Because it's America, and any of us can discuss what's on our mind, whether everyone else likes/agrees with it or not. B)
 

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I mentioned it as it wasn't the point of this thread.
 

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Because it's America, and any of us can discuss what's on our mind, whether everyone else likes/agrees with it or not. B)
[/b]
Not on this board, where we ask that members remain on topic. "On topic", loosely defined, pertains to bassets hounds or dogs in general.
 

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Valerie I do understand what you’re saying and have to agree with you. I read threads on this board all the time about how terrible back yard breeders and puppy mills are. How their puppies end up being neglected or abused because they don't care where or what happens to the puppies they sell. How can people who feel so strongly about this feel it's ok to torture a dog in anyway, even if the dog thinks this is what he was bred for and doesn't realize he's being tortured for no reason other then somebody's idea of a sport. I know this opinion won't be very popular with some and will probably get some nasty reply back but I had to say it.
 

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Not on this board, where we ask that members remain on topic. "On topic", loosely defined, pertains to bassets hounds or dogs in general.
[/b]

Ahh....point taken........*biting tongue........biting tongue HARD!*......
 

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I volunteeered for Basset rescue for over 12 years (personally fostered 40 Bassets in my home), I've trained Bassets in Obedience for over 30 yrs., I've trained in Agility and Tracking and Rally Obedience. For the last 8 years my passion has been Basset Hound Hunt Tests. Molly earned her Master Hunting Hound title at this years BHCA Nationals in Gettysburg. The breed was bred to find, scent, track and trail rabbits so a human hunter could shoot the rabbit for food on the dinner table. There are no kills at a Hunt Test, but if a Basset should "catch" a wild rabbit (I've never seen this), whatever. These dogs were bred to do this. They are hunters. Labs are bred to retrieve shot birds. They are genetically programmed to retrieve anything in any circumstances. I also own a Lab and live across the street from the ocean (on Long Island, in the Northeast) and my Lab willingly goes in the water 365 days a year. The drive in the hunting and retreiving breeds is so great they could care less about physical injuries. I get so excited at Hunt Tests that if I don't come out of the field with bleeding cuts (being in the brush flushing rabbits) I feel as if I have failed. Granted, some people have no regard for their dog's well-being. But also, most people have no regard for their dog's genetic heritage. If you want to see a happy dog, let it do what it was genetically bred to do. Belinda.
 

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I agree with you. Not that I don't agree with the idea that dogs love to do what they were bred to do, like hunting, tracking, retreiving, etc. We all want our dogs to be happy, I would hope, beacause they bring so much joy to our lives. They have needs also. But we are also the guardians of their welfare as well. My dog Sherman, being a Basset, loves to sniff and track. He also LOVES to say hi to people. Does that mean if he sees someone walking across the street that it is my obligation to let him say "Hi" if it means he'll run across the street and possibly get hit by a car to do what he "loves" to do? I think not. He doesn't think about being hit by a car when he's focused on greeting someone. This is the same thing as that man's hunting dog. We need to protect out buddies from getting into trouble whilst doing what they love to do, or at least show some sort of judgement.

My two cents
Sally and Sherman
 
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