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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Laborday weekend Basset event SE PA, NJ MD Results Update

Saturday and Sunday Set 3-4 North Lancaster Beagle Club is hosting a AHBA field trial This event is open to all basset. The can be spayed/nuetered . The only requirements are

1. The appear to be pure bred and to the vest of the owners knowledge are purebred
2. under 15" tall
3. register with the AHBA cost $10.00 can be done day of show
4. Pay entry fee

Participating dogs get 1 hour in the field with a cast of other randomly chosen dogs in an effort to find, track, hunt rabbits

Spectators are welome as well For more detail on Field trial post a question here or see What would your hound think of this?

Northern Lancater County Beagle Club
180 Forest RD. Denver,PA 17517

More details can be found here Labor Day hunt in PA
 

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Discussion Starter #3
AHBA Always has. BHCA/AKC field have allow spay nueters for a few years BHCA/AKC hunt test have always been spay/nueter freindly as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
15" is the disqualifying hieght for basset in AKC field trials and show ring So 15" has become the defacto standard of what constitues a proper basset so I think but do not know for sure why AHBA uses it. As with any cut off there is some arbitraryness to it ie why 15 vs 14 or 15 vs 15 1/2 etc. But a height cut is born out of the purpose of the breed to hunt with the human on foot. there is though to be a percieved advangage in speed with taller dogs. Take beagle for example there are two class in both the show and field trail under 13 and under 15 inches.

For the record I have never actual seen a dog measure but it is a possibility. before the cast actual starts any handler can challenge the height of the dog. if over 15 it is DQ and a report filed.


from AKC breed standard
"Disqualifications
Height of more than 15 inches at the highest point of the shoulder blade.
Knuckled over front legs.
Distinctly long coat. "


these are fault so agregious that even if the dog is pure bred it is not allowed to compete in the breed ring some of these carry over in to the field which is the other venue used to "judge" breeding stock. there are no such restriction in other performance events,
 

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TBH, 15" (at the shoulder) would be an awfully tall basset.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
BH, 15" (at the shoulder) would be an awfully tall basset.



SHHHSH DON'T let Toughy know his offical AKC measurment was 15 1/8" in other venues measured in @ 15" and yes he was tall. more than an 1" taller than any other basset I owned. A big strike against early nuetering of males.
 

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where's the top of the shoulder? is that the same height as the top of the dog's back?

btw, if you're looking at my back, my back goes UP. my back end is taller than my front end. is that strange?
--Worm
 

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Discussion Starter #9
my back end is taller than my front end. is that strange?
not strange simply not conformational correct.


the withers is basically between the shoulder blade when measuring dog height the top of the shoulder blades is what is used. it is still a bit impresise and amendable to tweeeking ie fischer that 22 1/2 inch dog has an Offical AKC measurament of 20 1/2 that is because when he was measure he had all four feet at the corner of the table he was standing on rather than straight under him. Lowering the head will cause the dog to measure slightly less as well. The withers is the tallest point of the back on a horse but that is not necesarily true of a dog.

Withers
"The withers is the ridge between the shoulder blades of a four-legged animal. In many species it is the tallest point of the body, and in horses and dogs it is the standard place to measure the animal's height (in contrast, cattle are normally measured to the top of the hips)."
 

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Mikey, how does early neutering affect growth anyway? I had Boomer neutered at 5 months (not that we can do anything about it now!), was that too early?
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
was that too early?
there is not cut and dry answer as a matter of fact the US is one of the few country in the world that nueters males as routine for population control. There is evidence on the health side that still sapying a female overall is healthier than not but that is very close in Males unfortunatle the evidence points to leaving them intacted as healthier for them.

Ok on the the hieght issue early sapying that is juvenile spay at the age of 8-16 weeks delays the closure of the growth plates. as it is assumed the sex hormones play a part in the signaling to close. That means on average the early spay/nuetered dog is 1/4 taller than the same intacted dog. This increase in hight gets smaller as the age the dog is spayed become older. Not a lot but it can be significant as you see mean the difference in being able to compete or not there are also some ortho issue that may be exaserbated by this extra hight hip displasia. Acl injuries etc. Also the delay in closure of the growth plate may have and effect on things like angular limb deformities and such if the age of the dog at spaying occurs at the time of or after some growth plates close but not all. this could cause a delay in closing of some of the open plate creating an uneven unatural growth rate between bone pairs.
Also early spay and nueter effect the appearance of the dog they tend to look more juvenile and less like adults,.

Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on skeletal, physical, and behavioral development
see the following articles

Growth plate closure was delayed (group I vs group III; P less than 0.000001; group II vs group III, P less than 0.000001) in all neutered dogs, as compared with sexually intact dogs. Growth plate closure was delayed longer (group I vs group II, P less than 0.000045) in dogs neutered at 7 weeks old, compared with dogs neutered at 7 months old. The rate of growth was unaffected by gonadectomy, but the extended growth period resulted in greater final radial/ulnar length in all male dogs and bitches neutered at 7 weeks.
Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete
One Veterinarian's Opinion


Keep in mind in this article early spay/nueter is defined as before sexual maturity ie 14-18 months for the average dog.

Rebutal to Chris Zink
Couple things obvious the person that Chris Zink is female, that this was specifical address to dogs destine to become or participate in atheletic endevor not all dogs and this author clear did not understand Ms zink use of early spay and nueter to mean before sexual maturity vs the more common definition of before normal six month spaying i.e. juvinile spaying at 8-16 weeks alot of the argument become mute when this is understood.


Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especiallyimmature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

On the positive side, neutering male dogs

eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer

reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders

reduces the risk of perianal fistulas

may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)



On the negative side, neutering male dogs

if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.

increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6

triples the risk of hypothyroidism

increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment

triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems

quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer

doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers

increases the risk of orthopedic disorders

increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

Also population control the basic premise of nuetering is suspect as well since males can not have puppies population control is more effective when the female population is spayed rather than nuetering males.

Benefits of Castration in Male Dogs

Even though castration eliminates male dog’s reproductive capacity, the overall effect on pet overpopulation is minimal.
Contrary to popular belief, the study found little evidence that castration was an effective treatment for aggressive behavior in male dogs, and may exacerbate other behavioral problems. Further research will be needed to clarify the relationship between age of spaying/neutering and these apparent effects on behavior

The bigest Scientifically valid reasons to nuetering seem to be reduced incidence of urine marking and less desire to roam. Roaming is best cure with containment ie fence and Urine Marking is just as effectively treated by nuetering an adult as nuetering a puppy. There is not much of a scientific basis for nuetering male dogs. Like I said this is one of very few countries that do it routinely.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Worm because the effect of testosterone removal behavioral is the most benefitial aspect of castration tie the tube have no effect on marking and roaming.

of course the removal of the hormone is the cause of most if not all the adverse health risks.



of course there are vets that will do this (vasectemy) if asked. but again population control is not best done on the male of the species.
 

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Thanks, Mikey, for all the explanations!

we got out the measuring tape tonight.

here are my fun facts:
1. HEIGHT: I seem to be between 13-14" tall, at least w/sitting (not having luck with me standing tonight. i guess i don't officially know that command)

2. TAIL: My tail is over a foot long!! it's 14" (greater than a footlong subway sandwich... mmmm... Subway... getting hungry here)

3. LENGTH: Tip of tail--> tip of nose stretched out: 52" (greater than 4 feet long...)

anyone else know their measurements?
--Worm
 

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Discussion Starter #15
LENGTH: Tip of tail--> tip of nose stretched out: 52" (greater than 4 feet long...)
IMHO legth is more appropriately measured from crest to base of tail toughy 28 1/2" 15" tall/

Zephyr was 13 3/4 tall anad square for a basset don't know her length.

Macy and Mariah are both 13 1/2 tall macey as looks the much larger dog in length and girth even though there is only about 8 lbs in weight differential it looks a lot more.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
because he is a harrier ie "beagle on seriods" in england beside basset there are three other hunting pack hounds all with the same basic conformation the only difference being size Fox hound , Harrier and beagle. Harrier being the middle size are supose to be able to be use to hunt on foot like a beagle or via horse back like a fox hound.

FWIW Fischer was the pick of the litter the best conformation dog the short heavy one of the litter grew up to be the tall slightly over standard and skinny at the bottom edge of the weight scale one. which is how I got him at two ,, he is original from your next of the wood an hour north of SF





 

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Discussion Starter #19
results Update

Eastern regional
11 open dogs

3 Champions

and a shout out to a couple of spectators that got rudely greeted by Macey and one traveling from virginia.


Open bench Female one by Deela BOS Deela a gold medal was the Prize

Macey 6 th.

Given the sortage of Judge I got called into service for the first time Unfortunatelly the way the cast rolled out I had two of Soundtracks Puppies in one cast and Macey in the other. And give only two judges of which I was one and that bouth open cast went out at the same time I had to judge a cast in which I had a dog entered acceptal if all the other cast agree but certainly ideal and could not handle dog in the other cast. Unfornate as well is my fathers back did not allow him to walk in the rough cut aisle Soundtracks girs were left on there own and unfortunatly the result were what i suspected and the were back at the club house very quickly.

The cast I judged with macey was unproductive in producing any rabbits. So the result and standing can down to the Judges opinion of hunting and handling a very subjective determination by the judge and one non really like to have to make, That said if you have to do that with one of your own dogs there can absolutely be no disputing that yours was work better than any of the other which is rarely the case. In the cast of 5 3 worked reasonable well and 2 not so much So Macey ended up third in her cast and for the first time no placing as the top dog that score zero points.

ON Sunday thinks work out better 12 dog in open 3 in champ And Macey lenore and deela all rolled into the same cast which by moving the order the case went out allowed me to handle the dog and not judge then at the same time. Again the cast did not produce a rabbit and the dog that unfortunatley did the most work was a loose mouthed given the lack of help he had it stuck in on a couple of occassion but with limited help neither time was a rabbit produce earning -20 point total and last place. Mace was place first on humting and handling the first Cast she has won.

In the open finals On rabbit was prduced and all the scoring i strike two checks were done by the winner Jersey Devil but as the end of the running of the rabbit presumably finding a hole in the cover macey did open My guess is it was at the rabbit in the hole but After that she regained some enthusiaum for working the brush. So Macey finished Second on Sunday her highest placement ever,

After ours I had the girls out and Deela found a couple of holes presumable with rabbits holes up because she was very vociferious in anoucing her find to the world and has past other holes with out the same reaction.

When judging the Open class on sunday three rabits were produce one losed in a swampy area on the dog were stop as the rabbit left the property for an neighboring corn field and the last end because time ran out there was not more than 3 minutes out of the hour that the dog were not running a rabbit,. That is always a good day.
 

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Wow, how interesting Mr. Mikey. Thanks for the update. Can't say i understood everything 'bout what was goin' on, but seems like Macey did fairly well under the circumstances. and u got to be a judge. is that like on 'American Idol'? there oughtta be 'American Idol for Dawgs.' not that i would win or anything. but i do enjoy hearing other dawgs howls.

Do they do this sort of rabbit thing out here on the Left Coast?

--Worm

Eastern regional
11 open dogs

3 Champions

and a shout out to a couple of spectators that got rudely greeted by Macey and one traveling from virginia.


Open bench Female one by Deela BOS Deela a gold medal was the Prize

Macey 6 th.

Given the sortage of Judge I got called into service for the first time Unfortunatelly the way the cast rolled out I had two of Soundtracks Puppies in one cast and Macey in the other. And give only two judges of which I was one and that bouth open cast went out at the same time I had to judge a cast in which I had a dog entered acceptal if all the other cast agree but certainly ideal and could not handle dog in the other cast. Unfornate as well is my fathers back did not allow him to walk in the rough cut aisle Soundtracks girs were left on there own and unfortunatly the result were what i suspected and the were back at the club house very quickly.

The cast I judged with macey was unproductive in producing any rabbits. So the result and standing can down to the Judges opinion of hunting and handling a very subjective determination by the judge and one non really like to have to make, That said if you have to do that with one of your own dogs there can absolutely be no disputing that yours was work better than any of the other which is rarely the case. In the cast of 5 3 worked reasonable well and 2 not so much So Macey ended up third in her cast and for the first time no placing as the top dog that score zero points.

ON Sunday thinks work out better 12 dog in open 3 in champ And Macey lenore and deela all rolled into the same cast which by moving the order the case went out allowed me to handle the dog and not judge then at the same time. Again the cast did not produce a rabbit and the dog that unfortunatley did the most work was a loose mouthed given the lack of help he had it stuck in on a couple of occassion but with limited help neither time was a rabbit produce earning -20 point total and last place. Mace was place first on humting and handling the first Cast she has won.

In the open finals On rabbit was prduced and all the scoring i strike two checks were done by the winner Jersey Devil but as the end of the running of the rabbit presumably finding a hole in the cover macey did open My guess is it was at the rabbit in the hole but After that she regained some enthusiaum for working the brush. So Macey finished Second on Sunday her highest placement ever,

After ours I had the girls out and Deela found a couple of holes presumable with rabbits holes up because she was very vociferious in anoucing her find to the world and has past other holes with out the same reaction.

When judging the Open class on sunday three rabits were produce one losed in a swampy area on the dog were stop as the rabbit left the property for an neighboring corn field and the last end because time ran out there was not more than 3 minutes out of the hour that the dog were not running a rabbit,. That is always a good day.
 
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