[Wworm]

MikeyT, mesaw your answer & pasted it below to start a new thread on this.

What are peeples thoughts on this situation that happened tonite???

...I'M a good dog, but what to do when other dogs are not so good?

Lemme explain: my pal Scarlet is probably a mini poodle, a brown one, like the first 2 pics here: miniature brown poodle - Google Search (i dunno bout the rest of them, don't really look like her. i'm not good with ID'ing these fluffy dog types!)

she is a puppy-- maybe 4-6 months? my person had a treat bag w/kibble & hot dog in it. well gosh darn it, Scarlet jumped up, this tiny thing, waist high & grabbed the hot dog and ATE it. it was almost an entire hot dog. actually, she ran around with it, it was quite funny. of course, all i got was the plastic bag it was in. (sullen)

well, Mikey, as u say, this variable reward & she hit the jackpot with obtaining the hot dog (!) made her keep jumping up on my person all night. (would I ever do such a thing??? me, innocent me? no. heck, actually, i don't really jump at all. 4 feet on the ground at all times. yup.)

and then she jumped up & bit my person's finger. (ummm... maybe she was thinking it was a hot dog?) no blood, but almost.

Scarlet's owner is an elderly lady, so not fast enough to get Scarlet really.

so... ummmm... what's one to do in a situation like this? it's at our evening playgroup? my person sent ME to take care of the job... haha. i was on a leash at that point & i prevented her from jumping too close. but is it kosher to discipline another person's dog??? and how, in this case? just making her sit when she jumps?

--thoughts on this appreciated, Worm



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ignoring doesn't work...niether does kneeing her)
see above it take some knowledge of how and why things work to implement them correctley and that includes limitation

Le us start with the knee to the chest. Can it work Yes howver must petowner are not will to do what it take to have it work. In order for it to work it must "punish" the dog. that is it need to be so strong the dog thinks twice about jumping up again. That is goint to require a lot of pain inflicted on the dog often times crossing in being abusive,. A mild asversive will not work and in this case is actually a reward, A mild bump on the chest is not adversive to the dog it is a reward of human contact it is seeking. This is while the failure rate of this method is astronomical because it requires that you are abusive to the dog.

Ignoring the behavior again work if done correctly always works with in the parameters that a previously rewarded behavior like jumping up is always lurking and can show up randomly on rare ocassions., That said it is not likely to succes because humans can not implement it properly. First once it because all incidence must be ignore. Just a single mistake of petting the dog while it is jumping up or other wise acknowledgeing it is going to make it exponentially hard to end the behavior by extinction alone. Here why. Variable reinforcement is very powerfull. Think of a slot maching it pays of only once and a while the expectation on any one pull is likely it won't payoff but people keep pulling the handle because of varriable reinforcement when you don't expected to be paid every time when you dont get paid it is not a big deal tha is what happen when you occasional reward the jumping behavior even if inadvertently varriablly reinforced behaviors become come very hard to exctiguish via extinction The second thing that no one tells you abaut using extinction is something that is called an extinction burst that happens virtually every time using extinction on a behavior that has been previously reinforced. Think of the elevator you step in and every time you press your floor button you are rewarded with the elivator doors closing and it taking you to the desire floor. So one day you press the button and nothing happens what do you do. Take the stairs, that is what those that tell you ignore the behavior would leave you to believe but that is not what happens., You hit the button again and again, try a different button, press harder, faster slower, longer etc before giving up that is an extinction burst the behavior gets worse much worse before it stops. Now considering the ignore the behavior is always recommend with attention seeking behaviors you get a behavior that occurs because it was so obnoxious it could not be ignore getting much much worse what art the odd when that happen it can be continued to be ignore so it fails. If that were not bad enough consider this attention seeking behavior exist to fufill a need of the dog ie get attention. even if you successfully ignore a behavior to extinction you have not changed the fundamental reason the behavior occured in the first place get attention., The dog is not simply going to give up on getting attention because jumping up no longer works it is going to try many different things until it find that new behavior that new one that is even more obnoxious than jumping up that you can't ignore and your back in the same hell you started. The way to end these obnoxious behaviors is to teach the dog a more appropriate less abonoxious behavior and reward this more appropriate behavior much more than the previous obnoxious one. This is where ignoreing the old behavior can play a part but it is only a part.

Quick Fix for a Jumping Dog

Squirt bottles yelling no etx people assume are punishment for most dogs they are not Keep in mind here I am using the behaviorism definition of punishment which is reduced the likelihood of a behavior from occuring. At best they are adversive something to be avoid but not even that for a lot of dogs. In a real training contect most often they are best describe as disruptive stimuli in that load nois a spritz of wather is going to cause the dog to stop what its doing and basicaly say to itself what was that. They do have uses in training if done properly. By interupting the undesired behavior you no have the oppurtunity but but the time is brief to now teach the dog a more appropriate behavior and reward it for it. The classic example is the dog chewing on a shoe. Yell no! dog stops for a second take shoe give appropriae doggie chew toy when dog chews on appropriate chew toy reward with praise and pets.

If you expect a squirt bottle or yelling No to discourage inappropriate behavior on their own you will be waiting till hell freezes over but if used properly as disruptive stimuli and coupled with teaching a more appropriate behavior then they can.

 

[jaleely]

i would say "ow, your dog hurts! Do you mind if i try to train her a bit, or give her a spank?" lol

 

[Wworm]

exactly, Bowser!
i thought of saying that, but not really even sure the best way to train Scarlet in this. this was not an issue i had to deal with with Worm. so I'm not sure even how.

 

[Mikey T]

but is it kosher to discipline another person's dog??? and how, in this case? just making her sit when she jumps?

No ! unless the give you permision but I would never ask for it. you never make a dog do anything what you do do is reward the behavior you want and make it more rewarding for the dog to sit than it is to jump up.
enve if the dog is jumping up there are time four feet are on the ground that is when you reward timing is everything in training a dog.

Is is also more than acceptable to move yourself out of harms way If this mean leaving every time you see that particular dog fine The first order of bussines is to be proactive in keep yourself and your dog safe.

 

[Mikey T]

Scarlet jumped up, this tiny thing, waist high & grabbed the hot dog and ATE it. it was almost an entire hot dog. actually, she ran around with it, it was quite funny. of course, all i got was the plastic bag it was in. (sullen)

If you want to use punishment it is ok if you follows\ mirriam's protocol of hitting yourself with a rolled up newspaper I go more for the banging the forehead against a wall technique myself.

 

[Wworm]

I go more for the banging the forehead against a wall technique myself.

Mikey, ur terrible!
(but that explains everything... haha...)

ok just kidding...

ok we will try this next time. we did try to ignore Scarlet & walk away but she followed us & kept jumping around. clearly the ignoring thing was not working. the hot dogs are out for my long-distance recall exercise, but i guess we can put them somewhere else...
thanks, Worm

 

[Annie714]

This whole jumping on people for treats thing has always been my fear with Annie. She doesn't mean to hurt anyone, but it can be scary for someone who doesn't know her when/if she were to jump on them if they had treats. So the other day at the park she noticed a young man giving his little dog a treat and goes bounding over in her pretty basset way. In my head I was freaking out thinking that she was gonna jump on the kid and grab any food related thing she could get her snout on. Well she shocked me by stopping short and sitting at his feet. This is what she has to do in order to get treats from me. I was soo proud of her!!!! But played it totally cool LOL. Unfortunately the kid was out of treats so she didn't get anything for being the polite little lady that she is...but you better believe she got plenty from me!

Maybe, show Scarlet's mom how to teach Scarlet some impulse control like the lady in Mikey's "It's Yer Choice" video? Or tell her to watch the video so things like that don't happen again.

 

[jaleely]

I'm all for positive reinforcement, but I also use a bit of negative too. A good NO and a gentle "scare-whap" on the nose, and then reward the good behavior.
They have to learn that NO means something they did is unacceptable.
Since the person is elderly, you should offer to take her to the local dog training place for her new once a week dog training classes you've signed her up for *lol* petsmart and petco are cheapest and easiest.
THe other thing is, you can offer to teach her dog to sit or something. That way when it is jumping you say "ah-ha!" or "no!" then instantly tell it to sit, so they learn that when they sit nicely they may get a treat.

 

[Mikey T]

!" then instantly tell it to sit,

personnal i would never do that if it is a behavior i want from the dog without a cue. By cueing the dog the dog tends to wait for the cue before ever doing what you want sort of like saying here here here to call a dog the cue become "here, a behavior. If it does not reduce a behavior

so using the four quadrants

Positive reforcement adding something that incease a behavior like verbal praise food treat

negative reinforcement removing something that increase a behavior. such as when a tack is placed on a chair the relief from pain result in incresing the getting up response. In dog training one of the most common is the ear pinch in the "forced retreive" Pinch dogs ear when dog opens mouth and takes dumb bell release ear. Negative reinforcement is used extensively by the ney generation of horse trainer the release of pressure as a reward for a behavior.

Positive punishment adding something that reduces a behavior swat on the butt assuming it actual reduce a behavior

Neative punishment removing something that reduces a behiavior most often use in dog training and chiled rearing is the time out withdrawl of attention to diminish a behavior.

a gentle "scare-whap" on the nose

do this with a dog you are not familar with you could be short a few fingers Try this with Mariah and there would be blood shed especial consdider you are female.


No is not a punishment for the vast majority of dogs that is it does not reduce the occurance of a behavior. What it is like any load noise is a disruptive stimuli that is the dog stop what it is doing for a moment. Wich can be useful in getting the dogs attention so you can train.

 

[Mikey T]

what most people consider punishment is best discribes as an adversive someth to avoid. but as we see above debending on how they are used adverisive can be psoitive punishment but also negative reijnfrocement.
I will give you my bigest problem with Positive punishment. It is this quite simply is people/owners expect that dog will make a conection between the punishment and the dogs behavior,when in reality what hapens is the dog makes a connection between the punishment and the human who delivers it,

let us use a whap on the rump as an example. Because it is delivered by the human it is fairly easy to make that connection between it and a human and a little more difficult to make the same association with its own behavior. Wait, it gets worse. People do not use the punishment for one behavior. Let's look at how positive punishment is typical used. Dog jumps up whap on the butt.. Dog barks for five minute constantly whap on the butt. Dog chews on a sock whap on the butt , dog pees on the floor whap on the butt. What are the one common threads. There is only one, human hits dogs on the butt., How is the dog ever going to relate a particular behavior causes the whap on the butt verus humans or this particual human is unstable and can't be trust when approached. These kinds of unintended consequences is quite frequent with positive punishment. Of course that does not mean the use of an adversive can't be effective such as applying bitter apple to stop chewing on a particular object Adversives is most likely to be effect if delivered instantaniously ie as soon as the dog bites the object and not percieve as coming from the human obvious it is the object that tastes bad. Both increase the chances it will be effective and at the same time minimize negative consequences.