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Discussion Starter #1
i got toby's 3 generation pedigree in the mail yesterday(woohoo!!) only to find that he is inbred! apparently Clydophus Cadoodlyhopper fancied one of his own pups...is this gonna be a problem for toby? also next to one of his family tree members it said AKC DNA or something. whats that mean?
 

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Generally, one time is not a real problem, but there breeders who keep breeding back to close relatives for many generations
The difference between inbreeding and line breeding ???
If you do it, it's inbreeding
If I do it, it's line breeding
 

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So how do you REALLY know when you've found a good breeder? As someone who has not and never will be exceptionally knowledgeable about breeding, bassets, etc. I feel pretty inadequate to determine "who" is a good breeder. Is there a way to know about inbreeding before you purchase, or do you only find out after the papers arrive as in the case of Toby?
 

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Unfortunately, even the papers, which a breeder should be able to show you, don't really mean much ---- no registry is any more accurate than the person who sent in for the papers. Until there is a registry that requires DNA testing of every dog, none of the pedigrees will be guaranteed. Some people say that a good breeder is active in showing their hounds ---- what about those of us who don't show, but compete in field trials ???
Some " responsible breeders" keep the pups in kennels with very little human contact --these pups are frequently shy and timid.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
the lady i got toby from wasn't really even a breeder. i think she was keeping 2 bassets as pets and then one thing led to another and then they had puppies. but i dont know why she wouldnt have had her 2 bassets fixed, especially having a male and a female. well anyways toby was born november 20, i took him home december 23. kind of early if you ask me. the vet says he's healthy though, so i can't complain about it.
 

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It probably won't be a problem for him.

Inbreeding is simply a tool. Used properly, it can help set desireable traits and eliminate undesireable ones (like health issues). Done randomly or by someone who doesn't know what they are doing, it can lead to disaster in the long run, but a single inbreeding is not normally a problem. POOR breeding is a problem.

And yes, 5 weeks is WAY too young for a puppy to leave the litter. Good breeders will keep the pup from 8-12 weeks before sending them to new homes.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
i guess i was just thinking of inbreeding in human terms and didn't realize it might be different in dogs. also i think some of his parents parents may have been brother and sister. they were from the same kennel. crazy!
 

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- what about those of us who don't show, but compete in field trials ???
Some " responsible breeders" keep the pups in kennels with very little human contact --these pups are frequently shy and timid.
Field trials, or any competition should be considered showing. It is an effort to bring out the best, and improve the breed.

And I don't call those responsible breeders.
 

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i was just thinking of inbreeding in human terms and didn't realize it might be different in dogs
it is no different in humans than in dogs. Inbredding tends to reduce heterogenius pairs of genes. This means traits are going to be more likely reproducible. And it can eliminate certain genetic abnormalities at the same time if an adnormality exisits it is more likely to be expresessed. Many if not most genetic deseases require two deffective genes, therefore a individual with more homogenius gene pairs (more pairs that are the same) and fewer heterogenius pairs which inbreeding produces tends to increase the expression of those defective genes that exist in that particular line. at the same time it prevents the inclusion of other defective genes as well. It is a tool that has advantages and disadvantages.

Demystifying Inbreeding Coefficients

Inbreeding and linebreeding
What does inbreeding (in the genetic sense) do? Basically, it increase the probability that the two copies of any given gene will be identical and derived from the same ancestor. Technically, the animal is homozygous for that gene. The heterozygous animal has some differences in the two copies of the gene Remember that each animal (or plant, for that matter) has two copies of any given gene (two alleles at each locus, if you want to get technical), one derived from the father and one from the mother. If the father and mother are related, there is a chance that the two genes in the offspring are both identical copies contributed by the common ancestor. This is neither good nor bad in itself. Consider, for instance, the gene for PRA (progressive retinal atrophy), which causes progressive blindness. Carriers have normal vision, but if one is mated to another carrier, one in four of the puppies will have PRA and go blind. Inbreeding will increase both the number of affected dogs (bad) and the number of genetically normal dogs (good) at the expense of carriers. Inbreeding can thus bring these undesirable recessive genes to the surface, where they can be removed from the breeding pool.


...For captive breeding populations, the less inbreeding the better, and this is the way the program is used.
In purebred livestock the situtation is a little different - we want homozygosity for those genes which create a desirable similarity to the breed standard. Wright's defense of inbreeding was based on this fact. However, inbreeding tends to remove those heterozygotes which are beneficial (e.g., the MHC) as well as increasing undesirable as well as desirable homozygotes. The practice is most dangerous in the potential increase of homozygous health problems which are not obvious on inspection, but which shorten the life span or decrease the quality of life for the animal.
The Canine Diversity Project

The Ins and Outs of Pedigree Analysis, Genetic Diversity, and Genetic Disease Control
Inbreeding significantly increases homozygosity, and therefore uniformity in litters. Inbreeding can increase the expression of both beneficial and detrimental recessive genes through pairing up. If a recessive gene (a) is rare in the population, it will almost always be masked by a dominant gene (A). Through inbreeding, a rare recessive gene (a) can be passed from a heterozygous (Aa) common ancestor through both the sire and dam, creating a homozygous recessive (aa) offspring. Inbreeding does not create undesirable genes, it simply increases the expression of those that are already present in a heterozygous state.

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Inbreeding can exacerbate a tendency toward disorders controlled by multiple genes, such as hip dysplasia and congenital heart anomalies. Unless you have prior knowledge of what milder linebreedings on the common ancestors have produced, inbreeding may expose your puppies (and puppy buyers) to extraordinary risk of genetic defects. Research has shown that inbreeding depression, or diminished health and viability through inbreeding is directly related to the amount of detrimental recessive genes present. Some lines thrive with inbreeding, and some do not.


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Some breed clubs advocate codes of ethics that discourage linebreeding or inbreeding, as an attempt to increase breed genetic diversity. This position is based on a falsle premise. Inbreeding or linebreeding does not cause the loss of genes from a breed gene pool. It occurs through selection; the use and non-use of offspring. If some breeders linebreed to certain dogs that they favor, and others linebreed to other dogs that they favor, then breed-wide genetic diversity is maintained.

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The perceived problem of a limited gene pool has caused some breeds to advocate outbreeding of all dogs. Studies in genetic conservation and rare breeds have shown that this practice actually contributes to the loss of genetic diversity. By uniformly crossing all "lines" in a breed, you eliminate the differences between them, and therefore the diversity between individuals. This practice in livestock breeding has significantly reduced diversity, and caused the loss of unique rare breeds. The process of maintaining healthy "lines" or families of dogs, with many breeders crossing between lines and breeding back as they see fit maintains diversity in the gene pool. It is the varied opinion of breeders as to what constitutes the ideal dog, and their selection of breeding stock that maintains breed diversity.
Field trials, or any competition should be considered showing
I personnal would limit it to any competition in which the dog was original bred to compete or simulates s sport/activity a dog was oringinally bred to compete/perform. For example breeding bassets for the sport of agility without out other consideration, soon will not be very basset like,.
 

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I personally would limit it to any competition in which the dog was original bred to compete or simulates s sport/activity a dog was originally bred to compete/perform. For example breeding bassets for the sport of agility without out other consideration, soon will not be very basset like,.
Yeah, I didn't think to be that specific.
 

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Some " responsible breeders" keep the pups in kennels with very little human contact --these pups are frequently shy and timid.
The one time I attended a field trial and asked questions, I gathered that some of these folks kennel their bassets, and some bring them into their home. I would like to find someone who is going to have a litter of pups where the bassets are included in the family home. Of the two litters I have found in the four months I've been looking, neither were in home pets. I'm not to far from you Dean, do you have any recommendations?

My husband and I really just want a nice healthy basset for a family pet. One who likes to trail walk/hike, is friendly, loves people and displays the typical challenging basset behaviors. Would consider getting involved in field trails or tracking on the novice level b/c we love to watch the basset work/hunt, not sure about the time commitment to do this since we are not yet retired.
 

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You understand that this is not a commercial ---- Right.
I have a bitch, Wench, that is somewhat fat and should have pups in about 2 weeks. Wench often sleeps on the bed, and the pups will be born and raised in the house. I try to over socialize my pups ( people, noise, vacuum cleaner ) so they are not easy to scare, and not afraid to explore.
Wench won the Grand Champion class on Sunday and took second on Saturday at the last hunt.
 

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Forgot to mention, I am taking Wench to the WV hunt. She will be running in the Grand Champion class. Some extra weight may help her as she tends to be quick, and usually out runs many of the other hounds.

Back to the topic of line breeding ---
Can any body explain how to line breed to strengthen one aspect of the genetics, without also strengthening any inherent weakness.
What does line breeding do to the immune system ??? Are any recessive traits ( long hair, bad ribs, glaucoma ) strengthened ???
 

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George Padgett gave a very interesting talk on this subject at Nationals several years ago. I'm just starting to read his book, so I can't really do a good job explaining, but basically it comes down to careful selection and extended pedigree analysis, knowing not only the dogs involved, but the extended family as well as tendencies within the breed and the mode of inheritance of the various faults/problems.
 

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What does line breeding do to the immune system ???
Generally the immune system is better of with heterozygotes But keep in mind that a mating of two individuals with heterozygotes at a specific gene will produce 50% heterozygotes and 50% homogenioua zygotes so it is far from perfect as well. The only way to insure Hetergeniusness it to Matte two homogenious partners but with diferent alles. so when they combine each offspring is hetrogenius.

Can any body explain how to line breed to strengthen one aspect of the genetics, without also strengthening any inherent weakness
Lets for instance That a particular stud is perfect except that it is Von wilbrent carrier. It could be mated with a dam that is not so prefect but of the same line and Von Wibrant clear. The off spring of these will be more nearly perfect but only carriers for Von wilbrant. If the off spring with the best carrecteristics where then mated you would end up with nearly perfectdogs with 25% being clear, 50% being carriers, and 25% affected. Using only the clears for future matings elminates the disease for then line with little or no effect on other traits. It is important of note that when discussing using suvh breedings it is all about culling and using only selected breeding. In the case where genetic testing is available for a specific gene it is easy to know the result when it is not a history of the foospring produced can be used to evaluate the genes of the sire or dam but this requires quite an extensive data base and time because some adverse traits and genetic disorders do not show up for years. It is also a reason using artificial insemination and frozen sperm from retired studs can be helpfull because their are more offspring the gentics of the sire are better understood. A potential stud that has never been matted less is know about. Also using line breeding to strengthen a trait or remove a fault is not about that single matting but about a progression of mattings

George Padgett gave a very interesting talk on this subject
Control of Genetic Disease
This article is a collection of information presented at seminars by Dr. George A. Padgett, DVM.


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  1. In any scheme used to control genetic diseases in dogs one produces an equal number of carriers whether a test mating or a dilutional system is used.
  2. In the process of detecting carriers in the general population of dogs using a random mating system, large numbers of carriers are produced.
  3. The effect of outcrossing is to hide a gene, not to eliminate it.
  4. Any breeding is in effect a "test" breeding if total records are kept. This allows one to benefit by retrospective breedings if the records can be assembled accurately and used in the accepted way to assign the risk that an animal has of being a carrier after producing varying numbers of pups.
Breaking the canine genetic code
In recent years, purebred dogs have been described as “genetic nightmares” in the press and by those who champion the cause of mixed breed dogs in shelters. It is true that purebred dogs have many genetic anomalies ranging from those that are innocuous (long coats or unacceptable colors in some breeds, for example) or easy to repair (entropion, the turning in of the eyelid) to those that are crippling or life-threatening, such as hip dysplasia or progressive retinal atrophy.
It is not true that mixed breed dogs are free of genetic diseases due to “hybrid vigor,” a benefit of first-generation crosses between breeds that is lost in subsequent generations. Dr. George Padgett, a leading canine geneticist, wrote in Dog World in January 1997 that mixed breed dogs can have the same genetic diseases as the breeds crossed to produce them. Padgett said that his files include information on 102 genetic defects identified in mongrel dogs, more than double the number identified in the Cocker Spaniel, one of the country’s most popular breeds.
The eradication of genetic diseases in purebreds and mixed breeds is possible, according to Padgett. However, it depends on an alliance of breeders and breed clubs to support the research, open registries to make the research available to breeders, and educational efforts to reach puppy buyers and novice breeders.
The Genetic Pedigree: a powerful tool against canine genetic disease
The only really effective way to attack the problem of genetic disease is to actively select against the defective genes, rather than trying to select for the most normal dogs you can find. It's a way of thinking about breeding that seems counter-intuitive, until you realize that if you know who the affected and carrier dogs are among the close relatives of the dogs you want to breed, you can lower your risks dramatically by making smart choices
"The basic tool kit for responsible breeders"

How to Select Against Genetic Disease with Knowledge, Not Hope


Developing a Healthy Breeding Program
Without genetic tests, breeders can still reduce the carrier risk in their matings. If a valuable breeding animal is determined to be a carrier, he or she can be retired from breeding and be replaced with a quality offspring. The genes of the retired dog can be preserved through the selected offspring, but the carrier risk can be cut in half. To further limit the spread of the defective gene, the offspring should only be used in a limited number of carefully planned matings, and should also be replaced with one or two representative offspring. In this way, you are maintaining the good genes of the line, reducing the carrier risk with each generation, and replacing, not adding to the overall carrier risk in the breeding population.

If gene tests are not available, the storage of frozen semen is important for quality dogs with high-risk pedigrees. If tests evolve that can differentiate carrier from genetically normal dogs, offspring from frozen semen matings can be reintroduced into the gene pool. Both DNA (from blood or cheek swabs) and semen should be stored to utilize this method.

The proper use of genetic tests is not one that continually multiplies carriers in a breeding program. It should be geared toward producing quality, genetically normal dogs. The total elimination of defective genes will probably be impossible for most breeds. With an established testing program, the breed can monitor the frequency of the defective gene in the breeding population, and work to decrease the percentage of carriers.
 

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Lets for instance That a particular stud is perfect except that it is Von wilbrent carrier. It could be mated with a dam that is not so prefect but of the same line and Von Wibrant clear. The off spring of these will be more nearly perfect but only carriers for Von wilbrant. If the off spring with the best carrecteristics where then mated you would end up with nearly perfectdogs with 25% being clear, 50% being carriers, and 25% affected.
Actually, if you mated a carrier to a clear, half the puppies would be carriers, half would be clear. So hopefully there would be a good enough clear offspring to continue on, if not you would breed the best carrier to another clear and try again.

Crude punnett square below
CC=clear Cc=carrier cc=affected


..............Sire
............. C..... c

Dam C ....CC ...Cc

.......C ....CC ...Cc
(dots used as spacers, since this board eliminates spaces left)

However, Mike's explanation applies if one parent is AFFECTED and one is clear.
 

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However, Mike's explanation applies if one parent is AFFECTED and one is clear
Which is what I meant, However given the nature of The gentics of found in Dobermans even carriers are affected in that they carry less of the clotting factor. however because of the varriable nature simple blood tests are not reliable for determining clears, carrier and affecteds.

DNA Studies in Doberman von Willebrand's Disease
The mutation itself has some interesting aspects. For one thing, precisely the same mutation has occurred in some human patients with vWD. It is a little unusual to see mutations be identical across species. This shows how closely we are related to our canine brethren! Second, the mutation is of a type such that completely normal von Willebrand's factor (vWf) is made about 5-10% of the time. Technically, the mutation is called a splice site mutation, with alternative splicing occurring about 90-95% of the time. That jargon won't mean much to the average Doberman breeder or owner, but let me explain what is happening in layperson language. It may be useful for the Doberman fancy to understand the mutation to a certain extent, because its nature explains why it was so confusing to understand for a long time, and it also explains why affected Dobermans have a milder disease than, say, affected Scotties.

To try to understand the effects of this mutation, let's use an analogy common to general experience. Imagine that a freight train is supposed to go from point A to point B following a railroad track. There is a point where a sidetrack goes to point C. However, normally the train never goes to point C, because the switch to point C, connecting the track up to the main track, is never thrown. Then the switch breaks (this is the mutation) such that the lock holding the switch from connecting the track to point C is no longer effective. The switch can now jiggle back and forth, sending some trains to point B, and others to point C. As freight trains rumble towards the switch, 95% of the time it jiggles over and causes the train to end up at point C. This is useless because point C ends at a cliff. The trains rumble over the cliff and are never heard from again. A minority of the time, maybe about 5%, the switch jiggles the other way and the trains end up at their normal destination. So, only 5% of the freight is delivered.

This is exactly what happens in the Doberman affected animal. These animals have two doses (two trains in the above example) of the mutated gene. Each gene is capable of making 5-10% of normal vWf (that is, going down the main track to point B), because the normal splice site is used a little. The 90-95% of the time the mutated splice site is used (going down the side track to point C), no useful vWf is produced. Since each of the two mutated genes is producing 5-10% of normal vWf the affected Doberman ends up with twice that, or 10-20% of normal vWf in their blood.

So, one of the mysteries of Doberman vWD that has puzzled scientists for years, how affected dogs can end up with a small amount of completely normal vWf, is cleared up by understanding this type of mutation. A second mystery is also cleared up. Doberman owners and breeders have had their dogs tested for vWf for years using the protein assay of vWf, and have often discovered low values in dogs without a bleeding history, even at surgery. The reason is, such dogs have 10-20% of normal vWf. If the bleeding stress isn't too great, the 10-20% of normal vWf that is present can prevent undue bleeding. Part of the time uneventful surgery fits that criterion, and unusual bleeding does not occur.

...This is a very common disease and a very common mutant gene. Carriers of the mutant vWD gene are at no risk of bleeding from vWD, but of course, will transmit the mutant gene to their offspring 50% of the time. Roughly, the ranges of vWf factor levels are 5 to 20% for affected, 30-100% for carriers, and 50-130% for homozygous normal. Note the major overlap between carriers and normals for vWf levels. This overlap accounts for the extreme unreliability of the vWf assay in trying to identify Doberman carriers of vWD.
 

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You understand that this is not a commercial ---- Right.
I have a bitch, Wench, that is somewhat fat and should have pups in about 2 weeks. Wench often sleeps on the bed, and the pups will be born and raised in the house.

So you know I'm a novice here in technical part of dog/basset world. I'm thinkin to myself......."hmmm, I wonder what the difference is between a bitch and a wench?". Just can't get used to using those titles, bitch, sire, dam, etc. Then you throw in "wench". Did some checking on Wickwire bassets and discovered Wench IS one of your bassets. What an interesting name........you haven't shared the story behind her name on the name thread initiated several months ago. Are you a fan of the PA Renaissance Fare? She is a beautiful tri color hound, deep colors, some of each. Perhpas she has a nickname like....................Wendy! Any how, I had to laugh at myself when I finally figured out Wench is the basset's name............what can I say..........I'm a blonde!
 

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"Lets for instance That a particular stud is perfect except that it is Von wilbrent carrier. It could be mated with a dam that is not so prefect but of the same line and Von Wibrant clear. The off spring of these will be more nearly perfect but only carriers for Von wilbrant. If the off spring with the best carrecteristics where then mated you would end up with nearly perfectdogs with 25% being clear, 50% being carriers, and 25% affected."

Sparks questions from me:

So why do you take a chance at passing Von Wilbrant in a quest for perfection? Why not steer clear? How does a novice like myself screen for this. What questions should be asked of the breeder to make sure you are getting a healthy pup with no history of disease in it's heritage? I've seen statements like, "If health issues arise the puppy may be returned", how can a person just return a puppy after they've fallen in love with it?
 

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So why do you take a chance at passing Von Wilbrant in a quest for perfection?
In a breed like doberman's in which on on the order of 25% of all dogs are clear. relying on clear-clear matings results in the loss of genetic deverisity and is much more harmful than allowing carrier to clear matting to increase percentages of clears over time


Doberman 25% clear 49% CARRIERS 26% AFFECTED

see Breeding Strategies

How does a novice like myself screen for this
there is currently no genetic test for von Wilbrandts in bassets while it does occur there is no knowing how wide spread it is in the breed the only testing available is testing for Vwf which is not nearly as reliable and can not distinqiush definatively between carrier and affected or clear and carrier.

with no history of disease in it's heritage?
That is totally unrealistic. If a breeder tell you that is the case they are either Lying to you or have not kept the necessary records or done the necessary pedigree analysis to understand what problem lie in their line. It is estimated every dog is at least a carrier of 3-4 genetic diseases.


What questions should be asked of the breeder
What disease do you do genetic testing. What test cerf/ofa etc do you do for polymorfic (having more than a single gene contribute) genetic diseases like Hip displasia. But genetic testing is no substitute for knowing the "genetic pedgree" of the dog . What if any problems did littermates previous mating , ect produce. This require that a breeder be in frequent contact with those that have dogs they produced and only work with breeder that do the same and are willing to truthfully share that information.
Keep in mind all this testing etc has a cost. So if a breeder did every possible genitic test etc the cost of a pup would be astronomical so restraint and testing for only conditions that are presumed posible for analysis of genetic pedigree is quite proper. Well respected individuals with the best interest of the breed at heart will disagree on what level of testing and what disease need to be tested for. You just need to find one that you are comfortable with the answers you get.

BHCA HEALTH pOLICY
BHCA encourages responsible breeding through screening for the more common genetic disorders known to affect Basset Hounds. BHCA believes that the following tests yield useful information that may assist responsible breeders in their selection of Basset Hounds to be used for breeding:

1.Gonioscopy (examination of the iridocorneal angle of the eye for abnormalities which may predispose the eye to the development of glaucoma) and eye examination, performed by a veterinary ophthalmologist, resulting in eligibility for Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) registration.
2.Thrombopathia genetic testing is available through Dr. Mary Boudreaux's laboratory at Auburn University College of Veterinary Medicine (see Health Issues section for referral form).
3.von Willebrand’s factor antigen testing.
4.Thyroid testing, to include at least on full thyroid panel.
5.Radiographs (x-rays) of hips and elbows with evaluation by a recognized registry, e.g. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA), PennHip, Institute for Genetic Disease Control in Animals (GDC), Ontario Veterinary College (OVC).
6.Temperament evaluation, as evidenced by Puppy Aptitude Testing or American Temperament Test Society, Inc. (ATTS) certification.
Breeders have a responsibility to research and understand genetics and common breed health problems. BHCA strongly discourages the use in a breeding program of any Basset Hound known to be seriously affected by any genetic disorder. Breeders are strongly encouraged to: (a) exchange screening results when planning matings; and (b) discuss breed health issues with puppy buyers, providing full disclosure on puppies offered for sale.
 
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