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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all!

Hope everyone is well!

So last year in December my girl had puppies. It wasnt planned or intentional. Any time she went into heat, I would always put a diaper on her and keep her and the boy separated. But he got loose, the diaper was ripped off and it happened.

Anyway, she had 9 puppies and they were all born healthy and on their own while I was at work.

I sold all 9 puppies.

A seller has reached out saying the puppy they picked now has hip dysplasia, arthritis and angular limb deformation.

Shes being aggressive saying this is all genetic and the vet said its so serious he might report it to the state to make sure i dont breed anymore, etc etc.

Im not a breeder at all. It happened unplanned. Im not registered as a breeder at all.

She wants her money back.

What should I do in this case? Its been 6-7 months now.
 

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I’d be interested in seeing Miley T and Frank’sMums thoughts. They will have good insight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Hello all!

Hope everyone is well!

So last year in December my girl had puppies. It wasnt planned or intentional. Any time she went into heat, I would always put a diaper on her and keep her and the boy separated. But he got loose, the diaper was ripped off and it happened.

Anyway, she had 9 puppies and they were all born healthy and on their own while I was at work.

I sold all 9 puppies.

A seller has reached out saying the puppy they picked now has hip dysplasia, arthritis and angular limb deformation.

Shes being aggressive saying this is all genetic and the vet said its so serious he might report it to the state to make sure i dont breed anymore, etc etc.

Im not a breeder at all. It happened unplanned. Im not registered as a breeder at all.

She wants her money back.

What should I do in this case? Its been 6-7 months now.
OK. First of all and leaving aside the fact that this 'mistake' happened (putting a diaper on an in-season bitch was NEVER going to stop this from happening!!) as a general rule, and depending on what any Sale Contract says re guarantees going forward, I'd suggest that after 6 - 7 months unless what's happened while the puppy has been in her new owner's hands, shouldn't come back on you. UNLESS it can be proven that these problems were hereditary. At this age, is she sure this is HD - all too often vets will mis-diagnose what's going on and at this age, it could so easily be Panosteitis which is bad while the patient is suffering the pain, but will stop eventually. It's too soon for arthritis to have set in (if it's HD) - but I'm not a vet and not seeing any x-rays. Angular limb deformation - is this about too much crook in the front legs. This can happen with (with respect) badly bred Bassets. It can be corrected.

The aggression could be because she's experiencing pain. But unless it can be seen in her parents, this is most probably down to how she's being reared. When a Basset gets confused about what's required of them (said to be stubborn), knowledgeable people know to switch how they train making the hound think what the owner wants, is their idea. In other words, Bassets should never be 'backed into a corner' or an aggressive reaction may be expected. Fear biting.

Bottom line. Open a calm discussion - ask them to bring her back to YOUR VET for her examination and opinion re her physical problems. Before there's any question of any kind of refund. Which incidentally, I'd not give. They've had their bitch for too long now.

Incidentally after buying my Frankie at 4 months, all that has been wrong with him since the get-go really, has cost me a small fortune. And yes, he was x-rayed early on after he went lame - premature closure of the growth plates, front, which resulted in too much turn out in front. So much for showing him. More recently there was more lameness and further x-rays showed sub-luxation of the hips and his spine - ghastly! I believe he was reared for the first months on too much protein (perhaps calcium too Mikey) which forced too much growth too fast = his subsequent skeletal problems. One thing he didn't have was a bad temperament bless him. There wasn't a nasty bone in his body (not BONE but temperament-wise).

So if you can, have these people bring the puppy back to your vet and meet them there. Try not to let this deteriorate into 'nasty'. For the good of the pup!!
 

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OK. First of all and leaving aside the fact that this 'mistake' happened (putting a diaper on an in-season bitch was NEVER going to stop this from happening!!) as a general rule, and depending on what any Sale Contract says re guarantees going forward, I'd suggest that after 6 - 7 months unless what's happened while the puppy has been in her new owner's hands, shouldn't come back on you. UNLESS it can be proven that these problems were hereditary. At this age, is she sure this is HD - all too often vets will mis-diagnose what's going on and at this age, it could so easily be Panosteitis which is bad while the patient is suffering the pain, but will stop eventually. It's too soon for arthritis to have set in (if it's HD) - but I'm not a vet and not seeing any x-rays. Angular limb deformation - is this about too much crook in the front legs. This can happen with (with respect) badly bred Bassets. It can be corrected.

The aggression could be because she's experiencing pain. But unless it can be seen in her parents, this is most probably down to how she's being reared. When a Basset gets confused about what's required of them (said to be stubborn), knowledgeable people know to switch how they train making the hound think what the owner wants, is their idea. In other words, Bassets should never be 'backed into a corner' or an aggressive reaction may be expected. Fear biting.

Bottom line. Open a calm discussion - ask them to bring her back to YOUR VET for her examination and opinion re her physical problems. Before there's any question of any kind of refund. Which incidentally, I'd not give. They've had their bitch for too long now.

Incidentally after buying my Frankie at 4 months, all that has been wrong with him since the get-go really, has cost me a small fortune. And yes, he was x-rayed early on after he went lame - premature closure of the growth plates, front, which resulted in too much turn out in front. So much for showing him. More recently there was more lameness and further x-rays showed sub-luxation of the hips and his spine - ghastly! I believe he was reared for the first months on too much protein (perhaps calcium too Mikey) which forced too much growth too fast = his subsequent skeletal problems. One thing he didn't have was a bad temperament bless him. There wasn't a nasty bone in his body (not BONE but temperament-wise).

So if you can, have these people bring the puppy back to your vet and meet them there. Try not to let this deteriorate into 'nasty'. For the good of the pup!!
Further - rule out the paragraph on aggression ....... I misread that, thinking it was the puppy who was aggressive, when it's the owner!!! Sorry. I don't know how to edit with this new format.
 

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OK. First of all and leaving aside the fact that this 'mistake' happened (putting a diaper on an in-season bitch was NEVER going to stop this from happening!!) as a general rule, and depending on what any Sale Contract says re guarantees going forward, I'd suggest that after 6 - 7 months unless what's happened while the puppy has been in her new owner's hands, shouldn't come back on you. UNLESS it can be proven that these problems were hereditary. At this age, is she sure this is HD - all too often vets will mis-diagnose what's going on and at this age, it could so easily be Panosteitis which is bad while the patient is suffering the pain, but will stop eventually. It's too soon for arthritis to have set in (if it's HD) - but I'm not a vet and not seeing any x-rays. Angular limb deformation - is this about too much crook in the front legs. This can happen with (with respect) badly bred Bassets. It can be corrected.

The aggression could be because she's experiencing pain. But unless it can be seen in her parents, this is most probably down to how she's being reared. When a Basset gets confused about what's required of them (said to be stubborn), knowledgeable people know to switch how they train making the hound think what the owner wants, is their idea. In other words, Bassets should never be 'backed into a corner' or an aggressive reaction may be expected. Fear biting.

Bottom line. Open a calm discussion - ask them to bring her back to YOUR VET for her examination and opinion re her physical problems. Before there's any question of any kind of refund. Which incidentally, I'd not give. They've had their bitch for too long now.

Incidentally after buying my Frankie at 4 months, all that has been wrong with him since the get-go really, has cost me a small fortune. And yes, he was x-rayed early on after he went lame - premature closure of the growth plates, front, which resulted in too much turn out in front. So much for showing him. More recently there was more lameness and further x-rays showed sub-luxation of the hips and his spine - ghastly! I believe he was reared for the first months on too much protein (perhaps calcium too Mikey) which forced too much growth too fast = his subsequent skeletal problems. One thing he didn't have was a bad temperament bless him. There wasn't a nasty bone in his body (not BONE but temperament-wise).

So if you can, have these people bring the puppy back to your vet and meet them there. Try not to let this deteriorate into 'nasty'. For the good of the pup!!


Thank you for the reply. So some more information to what you put down...

Apparently they are sure its HD. She sent me photo of the Vet diagnostic.

What worries me is that a few months back the puppy under her care got his paw stuck in its crate and "fractured." I looked up the messages from that day and she told me the vet was worried and took x-rays and the right paw was hurt, specifically 3rd toe but the puppy was too wiggly to fully examine. She also admits she let him run around and he seemed just fine.

Fast forward to today, she sends me that vet diagnosis and in the description, the vet says the pup is bunny hopping and weakened right side. That his right paw (which was injured) is tender specifically in the 3rd and 4th toe.

Again, Im not a breeder, at all. I dont pretend to be and i never had intentions to be. My dogs have no papers themselves. She admits to me in text that she knew beforehand all the warnings (no papers, no show breed, no genetic testing, etc etc) but I have to admit fault. But in my mind Im thinking "you knew the warnings, there were no misinterpretations and you decided to buy anyway"

And thats not me trying to sound or be a jerk BUT if I was shopping around for a pure bred that was 100% free of defects, I probably wouldnt look to a sub $1000 puppy and would go to a REAL breeder and pay the $2000-$3000 fee for one that had those guarantees.

Agreement she signed says she had 3 days to take to her own vet and have puppy fully checked out and if any issues, return for FULL REFUND. Other line expresses this is not a show/competition line and no other guarantees/warranty is applied.
 

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Incidentally after buying my Frankie at 4 months, all that has been wrong with him since the get-go really, has cost me a small fortune. And yes, he was x-rayed early on after he went lame - premature closure of the growth plates, front, which resulted in too much turn out in front. So much for showing him. More recently there was more lameness and further x-rays showed sub-luxation of the hips and his spine - ghastly! I believe he was reared for the first months on too much protein (perhaps calcium too Mikey) which forced too much growth too fast = his subsequent skeletal problems. One thing he didn't have was a bad temperament bless him. There wasn't a nasty bone in his body (not BONE but temperament-wise).

So if you can, have these people bring the puppy back to your vet and meet them there. Try not to let this deteriorate into 'nasty'. For the good of the pup!!
Regarding too much protein. My pups fed on their mommy for a while but they were instantly attracted to her bowl of food and even as little as 3-4 weeks Id see them crawling over to the bowl and trying to nibble on her food.

She threw it in my face that I admitted to allowing this and not giving them puppy food.

Its Wag Grain Free dog food. When they were starting to eat real food, I let them have the same kibbles as mom and dad. Why? Because comparing Wag regular vs Wag puppy, it had all the same ingredients except 1% less protein and 1% less fat than puppy food but it included Glucosamine and chondroitin which are for bones/joints.
 

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Re puppies getting into mum's food - for future reference, always feed mum outside the whelping box so this doesn't happen. As a general rule, puppies from weaning, need more than what adult food contains. You breed for bone but you feed to promote what bone there is there genetically. Our young puppies always had lean raw hamburger, cottage cheese, scrambled egg and so on mixed in with a good quality puppy food (not all in the same meals) and I'd give them a mid morning, mid afternoon and last thing drink of warmed goats milk too. I'm not familiar with Wag dog food however. If these people bought from you at around 8 weeks, they had time to adjust what food their puppy was eating between then and her age now!!

You'd be well advised not to give these owners any information they can make something of!! I would add that most of what's happened could be said to be down to 'buyer beware'. Nobody forced them to buy one of your puppies after all.
 

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When you breed you breed for life. A responsible breed will always back a dog. If it were me I would refund the purchase price regardless of what is or is not in sales contract. and/or state puppy lemon laws and the like. The dog is not is a good home for it and should be removed from the situation immediately. Regardless of how you buy/sell contract reads it must comply with the puppy lemon laws of the state or is void. The cost of the refund is far less expensive than the alternative but the refund must be predicated on the return of the dog as well.


State of CA as an example You would not be covered under it.
"California Lemon Laws for Dogs"

Without actual seeing the dog puppy one can not know for sure. but past experience tells us, the Vet is likely full of crap and has little to no experience with basset hounds. It would not surprise me if this dog has Pano and is being misdiagnose and or if angular limb deformity does exist it was the result of or exacerbated by 1. early spay/neuter. 2 trauma to on or more growth plates which you as a breeder have no control over.

1. 99.99 % of all basset hound have OFA dysplastic hips. no different than any other dwarf breed. OFA, penn Hip and other tools used to test for hip dysplasia are basically useless with dwarf breeds. Despite what there hips look like on x-ray and how poorly developed the hip socket is, rarely do any of the dwarf breeds have hip issues see


"
I got some very good and very candidly given information. He said several things: This is not a breed he sees, as a surgeon who does lots of work to relieve pain in hips or to analyze x-rays. This is not a breed coming in with pain issues. It’s not a breed he associates with dysplasia symptoms with any regularity. He does not recommend OFA for corgis of any type, because he feels that the scoring is more or less guesswork unless the joint is clearly already arthritic or the socket just plain doesn’t exist, and EVEN THEN he rarely sees dogs come in with pain.
He said, and this is close to an exact quote, “These are dogs with weird hips, and they get along just beautifully on those weird hips.”


angular Limb deformation is a requirement for a proper basset front. A requirement for proper conformation the legs are suppose to be crooked. . The legs must be bent to be correct, Certainly there are a large number of bassets with really bad front ends and the limb deformation is way too excessive or does not exist but rarely is this actual an issue. I have seen some Bassets with amazingly horrible front ends get along just fine on them. There is way too much surgery prescribed to fix a problem that does not actual exist and usually does more harm than good. I am also firmly convinced a large percentage of the issue is environmental especial early spay/nueter (before maturity and growth plates close,}. can cause a problem that would not other wise occur because the growth plates in the forearm close at different times

see The following is from the Basset Hound Faq by Judy Trenck
Paneosteitis is an elusive ailment occasionally seen in young Bassets. It is also known as wandering or transient lameness. Attacks are usually brought on by stress and aggravated by activity, and up to now, the cause and the cure are unknown. This mysterious disease causes sudden lameness, but its greatest potential danger may lie in false diagnosis, resulting in unnecessary surgery. A puppy will typically outgrow it by the age of two with no long term problems. It can be quite minor, or so bad that the dog will not put any weight on the leg. Symptoms may be confused with "elbow displasia", "hip displasia", "patellar luxation" and other more serious disorders. The most definite way to diagnose paneosteitis is radiographically. Even with this, signs can be quite minimal and easily missed. As to treatment, no cure was found in experimental tests and the only helpful thing found was relief for pain (aspirin, cortisone, etc.) However, using these, the dog tends to exercise more and thereby aggravate the condition. Note again: A GREAT MANY VETS ARE UNAWARE OF THIS DISEASE IN THE BASSET .
In diagnosing the cause of a Basset's lameness, a radiograph of the forelimbs may indicate a condition called elbow incongruity. (Elbow incongruity is a poor fit between the 3 bones which comprise the elbow joint.) Studies to date indicate that elbow incongruity is normal in the Basset and is not the cause of the lameness. It is also suspected that many of the previously mentioned unnecessary (panosteitis) surgeries have been performed on Basset Pups just because radiographs that were taken showed elbow incongruity. A study on forelimb lameness in the Basset is currently underway at the School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania. As previously mentioned they have determined that elbow incongruity occurs in the Basset but suspect that incongruity rarely causes the lameness


Other notes Protein more specific excess protein has been never shown to cause any Orthopeadic issues in growing puppies only Excessive calcium and overfeeding this would falls on the current owners. MOst Puppy food are higher in protein and calories than adult food. Before the advent of large breed puppy most breeder advocated feeding adult food rather than the more calorically dense puppy food


"It was later demonstrated that dietary protein concentration had no effect on skeletal development. 2 While there is no scientific support for adverse effects of protein intake, other dietary factors, especially excessive calories and inappropriate amounts of calcium, have been shown to negatively influence optimal skeletal development in large breed puppies. "
 

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highly recommend this tread for you
Elbow dysplasia experiences especially the Wifes answer " would get a second opinion from a vet familiar with the breed, preferably an orthopedic vet. Many vets do not understand how bassets grow, especially males, and recommend unnecessary surgery on a normal basset. Not saying that ED never happens, but basset x-rays tend to freak vets out. "
 

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"Have you ever wondered why Basset Hounds have funny, curved front legs? It is not to prevent them from stepping on their own ears. It is because they have been bred to have angular limb deformities (ALD]"
 

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"Prospective owners MUST be told about the unique skeletal system that they are buying. They MUST walk away from your living room with enough information that they are making a decision with their eyes wide open. I think it’s entirely appropriate to also tell them that despite these limitations their dog will most likely live a very long, healthy, and happy life. But they should never think that nothing can happen. If they know the problems that are characteristic of dwarfism, they will be much more motivated to work to prevent the issues (a careful diet to prevent hip problems, supplementation for disc health, careful conditioning to exercise, avoiding the falls and concussive events that hurt growth plates, etc.) and much more prepared to respond to the issues when and if they occur. You want a puppy buyer who knows enough about disc disease that she suspects it quickly and gets the dog to the vet in time to prevent nerve death. You want a dog owner who knows enough about achondroplasia that they are not blindsided by diagnoses, so that they can become their dog’s best advocate when decisions about care, treatment, pain relief, euthanasia decisions, and eventual necropsy are demanded of them.

...And as for taking them back when catastrophe hits, I think that is one of the MOST IMPORTANT jobs a breeder can do. Owners often feel completely powerless to face the diagnosis, prognosis, and decision making that come with an end-of-life disease. I have told puppy owners that if they get to that point and just can’t handle it, the dog can come back to me. I’ll hold their hand and the dog’s paw and, either together or with the owner separated from the process if they desire, we’ll get through those last weeks or months. I think this is something that all breeders of all breeds should be willing to do, and when you’re producing puppies with specific weaknesses you should expect to do it at one point or another. Cradle to grave is the only right way to do it.

...Being an ethical breeder is about being willing to pick up a trembling old fat and incontinent dog that you sold twelve years ago, and keep him on your bed on a heating pad and feed him gruel for six weeks until you and the vet decide that it’s time for him to go to heaven. It’s about crying like a fool when he goes, and burying him next to his mother, and crying more when you think about her. Being there for your dogs and your owners is the key.
 

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might want to consider passing this series on to owner specifical about corgi but all apply to basset hounds as well




"Chondrodystrophic (disproportionately short-legged) breeds such as the Dachshund, Basset Hound, Pekingese, Shih Tzu, and Lhasa Apso, are all affected by some degree of angular limb deformity. This is a consequence of the genetic abnormalities that give these breeds their distinctive appearance. "
 

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When you breed you breed for life. A responsible breed will always that back a dog. If it were me I would refund the purchase price regardless of what is or is not in sales contract. sate pupply lemon laws and the like. The dog is not is a good home for it and should be removed from the stiuation immeadiately.


as for the Vet he is likely full of crap and has little to no experience with basset hounds. It would not surprise me if this dog has Pano and is being misdiagnoese

1. 99.99 % of all basset hound have OFA dysplastic hips. no different than any other breed. OFA penn Hip and other tools used to test for hip dysplasia are basically useless with dwarf breeds that dispite what there hips look like on xray and how poorly developed the hip socket is rarely have hip issues see

 

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If she wants to return the dog, I would take it and give her money back, then find the dog a proper home. If she doesn't want to return it, I would require an examination by MY vet (assuming your vet is familiar with Bassets and their growth) and go from there.
 
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