[TulipRose]

So our Tulip is still seizure free (YIPPEE!) but now that we have made it through that awfully rough patch we are seeing some very persistent and not so nice behaviors coming through. (Has been going on since end of January)

1. She is a ridiculous counter surfer. If I TURN MY BACK on anything in the kitchen while making dinner she is in it, immediately. Gatign her out works, as does putting her in the back yard, but I'd like to get to the root of the issue. It doesn't matter when/if she has been fed, either. I have tried scolding her with, ignoring it, using the off command (which works, if if see her) BUT she is still on the counters ALL THE TIME.

2. She EATS/CHEWS everything. I feel like we have a toddler again. I can't leave anything within reach of Tulip on her hind legs anywhere in the house, or she is into it. And quickly. And will either destroy it, or race outside with it (through the doggie door) to devour it there. She has taken recently to taking books off the shelves and chewing them.

This behavior happens when we are home, not just when we are away. I can be across the room from her, or just upstairs for a minute, and come downstairs to find something destroyed so I tend to lean away from separation anxiety...

I was thinking she was enjoying the negative attention (the yelling of stop it, etc.) which is why we started "Ignoring' the behavior and just quietly taking the item away, etc. This has probably cut the incidences down by about 15%, but not fully. While I understand she is still a puppy, that can't be the ONLY reason. We wonder a bit about the possibility of some brain damage from the constant seizures. And, if we need to help her 're-learn' appropriate behaviors from when she was a small puppy. It seems, however, that she knows EXACTLY what she is NOT supposed to do...and then does just that. We are, in general, VERY consistent with her as far as what she is allowed to do and what she isn't (on couches, but not if people are, use of commands, etc.)

She is crated when we are not at home, or confined to the kitchen if we leave in the evenings again after she has been in the crate all day. Each time I do that, I dread walking into a disaster upon returning.

Any ideas about what to do/what is going on with her (or us and our training?)

 

[Wworm]

Glad there's no more seizures, little Tulip..

Hmmm... sounds like one for Mikey...

 

[duder]

Mortimer is a big counter surfer as well. Randolph not so much. I can usually spot when he is about to jump and if I tell him no, he wont do it. But other than catching him before he jumps, he does it all the time. Havent had any success getting him to stop, just have gotten used to moving things out of his reach.

That being said there have been many mornings where he has enjoyed licking my sandwich I make to take to work. I let him lick my face, so I figure a little slobber on my sandwhich wont kill me.

 

[mhvonalmen8908]

Yay for being seizure free!!! And I don't have any tips for the counter surfing and destroying of things. Sorry! What we did with ours was to say "Ah!" while they were chewing on the wrong thing and then taking it away and giving them one of their toys and praising them when they chew on the toy. It took awhile but they eventually got it. Good luck with it and hope Tulip continues to be seizure free.

 

[Boomer's Mom]

Good to hear that Tulip is seizure-free!

Boomer is a big counter-surfer too, and no matter what we do or say, he still does it, so we just push the food back. Scary part is, I'm getting used to a little slobber on my food.

 

[MJJean]

All of mine are counter surfers and I haven't found a way to break them of it. They seem to have poor impulse control when it comes to food. I have learned to not leave anything food related unattended on the parts of the counter they can reach or on the tables.

Owen is the very devil for stealing things and taking them to Ike's crate to destroy. His particular favorites are bras, underwear, shoes and anything plastic. He will actually sneak into the laundry room and steal out of the hamper! He has gotten a bit better because I have been watching him like a hawk and when he tries to go get something i will follow him and then scold him in the act. "Grrrr face" with eyebrows drawn together, pursed lips and frowning plus very angry voice and a couple words get the point across for me. That solves the laundry problem, but not the shoes or plastic. That stuff I am getting on the kids for!

I know my older dogs went through a rebellious stage after learning proper behavior as pups. Could be that. If yours is at the rebellious stage then you are probably going to have to reinforce previous training.

Its a lot like having a kid. Puppy proof the house, work on training and teaching what is and is no ok and hope. It took me 2 years before I could trust the older dogs and I still can't trust them with food or objects that contained food.

 

[ChucksMom]

His particular favorites are bras, underwear, shoes and anything plastic. He will actually sneak into the laundry room and steal out of the hamper!

I laughed out loud when I read this... With our older dog he seemed to get over the underwear chewing stage when we got him fixed. Chuck's still a baby so we've got a ways to go before he gets over this stage!

 

[Mikey T]

While I understand she is still a puppy, that can't be the ONLY reason.

There are those with puppies that will tell that yes being a puppy explains everything.


First let talk counter surfing. Once a dog has had sucess it is not likely you can complete eliminate the behavior forever. It is highly rewarded for the practice on two front first it is mental stimulating for a hunter ie tracking it game and capturing it secondly they get a food reward they normal would never get. This reward is on a variable schedual that is it does not ocur every time the dogs checks. One mightd think that this would mean it would be easier to break the behavior but just the opposite it makes it much more difficult to extinquish the behavior. It is much like a slot machine a big reward ocassional keep people coming back for more. The dog knows it is not going to get a reward every time so the times it doesn't are no big deal it did not expect one. There is no negative consequence to not geting a reward so the likelihood the behavior will extinquish simply by ignoring the behavior and prevent the dog from being rewarded is remote. It may cut down on the number of times the dog attempts over time but not likely to stop it completely. Punishment may work. but it must be set up so the dog believes the punishment is the result of its own action. ie not coming from you. If for instance the dog get a rap on the bum each time it counter surfs from you. It does not stop counter surfing, it simply learns to do it when your not around. This is why many recommend booby traps or devices like scat mat which cause a shook when touched. Again the problem is for many if not most dogs is the reward or the potential reward is greater than the punishment we are willing to let the dog experience, While a large bang of falling pot might startle the dog the potential for a piece of meat general keep them coming back. I use a scat mat on the counter for one dog. It was completely successful in keep the dog from puting it feet on the counter. So instead it made sure they stayed high on the cabinet instead cut down the reach by maybe an inch,. So even when it works it may no be effective. Counter Surfing is not something that is easily solved., It is one of those thing that is much easier prevented but once it happens at best it can be managed my being dilligent and not leaving anything out. Think of it this way,. If the dogs acts of counter surfing are not suffcient to change your behavior for leaving things in the dogs reach, how is anything you going to do be able to change the dogs behavior as well.

It doesn't matter when/if she has been fed, either

I think alot of owners do not understand this about scent hound. They are always hungry, every minute of every waking day they are hungry. The only time they are not hungry is when their stomach is so huge their feet can no longer touch the ground. and even then it just might be they can't move rather than they are not hungry. My theory is this trait is the result of unintended consiquences of selective breeding. If you are breed dogs for tenacity and presistent while hunting which dog is going to be the more tenacious, consistent and persistent hunter after a meal. the dog that is easily sated or the dog that is always hungry. When breeding for hunting what happened is the dogs that don't have a i'm full buttton got to pass this along to all the subsequent off spring and those that got full didn't get to reproduce.

She EATS/CHEWS everything. I feel like we have a toddler again

dogs go through not one but Two teething stages the second at around 9-10 month of age when the rear molars emerge. I have found this stage is often much worse on the dog than the first at 4-7 month of age. Most dog out grow this as well

It seems, however, that she knows EXACTLY what she is NOT supposed to do...and then does just that.

know my older dogs went through a rebellious stage after learning proper behavior as pups

see Puppy Adolscence - or Demon Spawn

But seriously folks, what is a dog owner/guardian to do during this phase?
The absolute first thing a person must do is understand what adolescence is.
(I posted part of this about a week ago. Forgive the repeat.)
Every puppy of every breed -- and every adolescent of every species that raises its young -- goes through the same thing at adolescence. Adolescence is an important, necessary transition period between childhood and adulthood

...Adolescence is the time when "Because I said so" simply isn't good enough anymore -- Nature *demands* that they test boundaries and consequences and decide for themselves what decisions they want to make. It's not dominance or rebellion. It's growing up.
Yes, even pet dogs *have* to go through this period. "But he won't be making decisions -- I will," you protest. Actually, I doubt it. Unless you're planning to be there, directing his every move 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you need your dog to know how to make decisions. More importantly, you want him to make the decision *you* want. And you want him to make this decision even when you're not there to back up the decision.

I will also ask how you come to believe the dog no's what it is suppose to do and what it is not. For many it is how the dog react when getting caught., Thing is what many human interpret as a quilty look is simply apeasement behavior on the part of the dog

seeWhat Really Prompts The Dog's 'Guilty Look'

By ingeniously setting up conditions where the owner was misinformed as to whether their dog had really committed an offense, Alexandra Horowitz, Assistant Professor from Barnard College in New York, uncovered the origins of the “guilty look” in dogs in the recently published “Canine Behaviour and Cognition” Special Issue of Elsevier’s Behavioural Processes.

Horowitz was able to show that the human tendency to attribute a “guilty look” to a dog was not due to whether the dog was indeed guilty. Instead, people see ‘guilt’ in a dog’s body language when they believe the dog has done something it shouldn’t have – even if the dog is in fact completely innocent of any offense.


...Whether the dogs' demeanor included elements of the "guilty look" had little to do with whether the dogs had actually eaten the forbidden treat or not. Dogs looked most “guilty” if they were admonished by their owners for eating the treat. In fact, dogs that had been obedient and had not eaten the treat, but were scolded by their (misinformed) owners, looked more “guilty” than those that had, in fact, eaten the treat. Thus the dog’s guilty look is a response to the owner’s behavior, and not necessarily indicative of any appreciation of its own misdeeds

 

[Annie714]

Congrats Tulip on being seizure free for a while now! Keep it up, we were worried for you!

 

[Soundtrack]

Honestly, she sounds like a perfectly normal basset puppy to me.

 

[gsally]

I'm with Soundtrack.

I'd recommend keeping a journal of all the mischief created by Tulip. Some day you will be happy to have the adventures of Tulip Rose chronicled for reminscing.

Happy your hound is seizure free.

 

[bubbad]

I was about to say the same thing Soundtrack.This is all normal basset behavior.If they never know they can do something they never will.Like counter surfing.The first time they put those paws on the counter,table etc and realize some good smells come from there you will never stop them from doing it again. When Esa felt like reading my magazines,or rather ripping them up, I blocked them or put them where she cannot reach them.You have to stay one step ahead of these dogs and anticipate what is attractive to them then fix it that they can't do it or get it.Easier said than done most times.

 

[roscolaylamommy]

I think alot of owners do not understand this about scent hound. They are always hungry, every minute of every waking day they are hungry. The only time they are not hungry is when their stomach is so huge their feet can no longer touch the ground. and even then it just might be they can't move rather than they are not hungry.

Ain't that the truth!!! I think Layla would eat until she could no longer move!

Tulip - We're going to headed to your neck of the woods tomorrow. My dogs LOVE Michigan. They especially love all the wonderful smells at my mom's house up in Newaygo.

 

[TulipRose]

Hi, all. Thanks for the advice and insights. I think much of the frustration with her has come since we adopted Holly (the stray that happened upon us...that we couldn't seem to adopt out) several months ago. According to the vet, Holly is just 4 months older than Tulip (she is ~18 months) and she is a COMPLETELY different dog. She can be left in the house without a crate and has no accidents and does not get into anything for 6+ hours. I guess I need to start thinking of Holly as the anomaly and Tulip as 'normal'. : )

MikeyT: Thanks for your insights. It isn't so much that we think Tulip KNOWS what she is doing is wrong...only that those are the 'activities' she chooses - which is a frustration to us. Given the myriad options in a given evening (playing with the other dogs/cat, playing with toys, chewing a bone, loving up on the kids, getting her belly rubbed, laying on the couch, sniffing the backyard, etc... she will choose to plant herself in the kitchen in hopes I will turn away from a counter for 6 seconds so she can snatch something from the counter. Or...she will make a ruckus in the dining room when we are all somewhere else so we have to get up, and then, when we get up from the couch, she races into the living room to knock over water glasses or snatch a cookie. Or...(my favorite) she will lay prone on the couch (like she is totally out) and as soon as you leave the room she will jump up, grab a book or picture frame from the bookshelf and run out the back door with it to have herself a snack. ; /

Good idea about the journal, actually. It would be oddly poetic to turn her seizure journal into her 'naughty' journal and laugh about it later. Much later... ; )

Anyway...I see that changing MY expectation of her behavior (as she is not Holly and Holly seems like an exception to the behavior rule) might make as much difference as actually changing any of her behaviors. That is something I will work on...

Thanks again!
Sarah

 

[TulipRose]

roscolaylamommy: welcome to MI! we're not too far from Newaygo! It's chilly and rainy here today, but we're supposed to get a warmer, drier weekend. Have fun!

 

[MJJean]

If it helps I have a saying I have pounded into the heads of the adults around here and am working into pounding into the heads of the kids. "Puppy crimes are crimes of opportunity! If you give them no opportunity, there will be no crime!" This comes in handy when one of the kids is whining about Owen chewing their possession. Well, if you didn't leave it where Owen could get it...

I feel your pain. I had to move the books on the lower shelf of the bookcase. I have to keep every bedroom and bathroom door closed. I used to keep the laundry room door closed, but its a folding door and the dogs have learned to open it . When we are eating in the family room or living room and I have to go to another room, even for a quick drink of water, I have to have another person guard the food, take the food with me or take the dogs with me!

Just remember that even if you have to make adjustments for the naughty puppy, she is worth it!

 

[Lightning&Stomps]

Ugh, I remember Lightning's adolescence. It was HORRIBLE. But he did eventually grow out of the worst of his behaviors. Oof, I'm breaking out in hives just thinking about it again!

 

[Mikey T]

'activities' she chooses - which is a frustration to us.

Fustration is good, it is the most basic motivator for human to actual train the dog. paraphrasing Susan Garrett.

she will choose

That is the thing with basset and other so called Hard to Train?
dogs, unlike the "smart" dogs they are not bidible, that is they derive no pleasure from pleasing you. Call it being selfish if you want but they are all about whats in it for themselves. This is not a bad thing just the way it is. If you want the dog to act in a particular way you need to make it in the dogs best interest to do so. Don't want the dog jumping up while greating, then don't reward the dog for attention for doing so. Only acknowledge, pet and interact with it when it is calm and has all four feet firmly on the ground.

Exercise as this (counter surfing over every other available oportunity) clearly demonstrates what the dog find more motivating. A chance at an enticing morsal is more important to Tulip than being petted, social interact with other dogs etc. Use this knowledge to your advantage. Reduce the amount you feed. Set aside the extra kibble to reward the dog for the behavior you want through out the day. If listening to you has higher odds of getting a treat than having to steal it which is the dog going to choose? they are not stupid - they do what works.

With dogs that are highly foods motivated the mere presence of food can be highly distracting. Also most of the annoying things that dogs do can general be classiied as being a lack of impulse control Teaching impulse control is the key to having a dog that is easy to live with. The video below which I most have post at least 100 times does two things - first step in teaching impulse control and helps remove the distracting influence the presence of food can have on a high food motivated dog

quidelines for teaching self control

Lowering Arousal

We used to say a trained dog is a free dog, a dog that could go with us anywhere on or off lead. They knew how to “behave” in the human-controlled world. But what we should have said is: A dog with self-control is a free dog. Freedom for dogs has everything to do with impulse control and little to do with whether they can heel or shake their paw. Dogs have to live safely and non-aggressively in a man-made world. Our responsibility to our dogs means training impulse control, which leads to teaching self-control.​

In my experience, a few dogs are born with low arousal levels and they have a natural sense of self-control. But I find that there seem to be less and less of these dogs. This may be because of breeding priorities that don’t include low arousal, or it may just mean that most dogs don’t live in rural environments and therefore they don’t come with very good natural programming to live in a mainly human-controlled world. I think dogs living in a busy household or environment never learn self control because they are constantly being stimulated and conditioned to be up and active, particularly ones who might be crated for long periods of time. When these dogs are then let out of the crate, owners often allow them to pace and be continually active in the home environment. Dogs like this can lose their ability to control themselves, similar to what can happen to dogs in a shelter environment. Dogs that are continually aroused can have higher cortisol levels¹

Any Dog Can Live Calmly in a House - Even Yours!

rewarding non-behavior​

Food Motivated

Rewards, Lures & Bribes
What is the difference between a reward, a lure and a bribe? Explanations & tips


What most owners don;t realize is the myriad of oppurtunites that exist to reward the behavior that they do want from the dog. Instead they thing they are "punishing" the dog through the use of an adversive. but in reallity they are negatively reinforcing the behavior. Think of it this Way in Behavioral term Punishment reduces the occuance of a behavior. if the behavior does not reduce it ain't punishment see
Jack Palance vs. Fred Astaire
for a better and more detailed explaination.

The process of teaching a behavior by getting a critter to avoid something is called aversive control. There are two types of aversive control, punishment and negative reinforcement. Punishment causes behavior to decrease, while negative reinforcement causes behavior to increase. The more technical scientific definitions of these terms are pretty confusing, but these simple descriptions are good enough for most situations.

...Things which increase behavior through force, intimidation, fear or avoidance are called negative reinforcers. If you sit on a thumbtack, the pain associated with the tack is a negative reinforcer, which causes you to do a behavior -- "jumping upward." The key difference between a reinforcer and a punisher is that one increases behavior, while the other one decreases behavior. In the case of our couch chewing canine, the swats and scolding did not affect the bad behavior at all. What actually happened was Fido's tendency to hide under the couch look "guilty" increased because of the harsh treatment. Those behaviors were negatively reinforced.

When dealing with a problem behavior simply stoping the behavior rarely works. the reason is two fold. First one is the reason the behavior general occurs in the first place is it is being inadverantly reward . thick counter crusing every once in a while the dog is succseful and reward. the second is punishment which is used to decrease a behavior is difficult to apply in a context that the dog understand. That is the dog understand that its behavior is what cause the punishment.

Let us look at one of the most common adversive use in training to day the Spray Bottle. The most common thing I hear when people discribe how effective it is goes something like this, All I have to do is show him the bottle and he stops. Well, as we have see from above this is not punishment but negitive reinforcement. It has no effect on the bad behavior dos not decrease the frequency it reinforces a stop what you are doing behavior. What does work it focusing on what you want the dog to do. for example dog in the kitchen with you has a particular spot ie rug, mat where it is to lie down and stay. IF now the dog gets a treat toss to her while she is there and onky while she is there she not going to be counter surfing because the opurtunity for reward is greater lieing quitely on the mat. Don't focus on the behavior you don't won't instead focus on rewarding the behavior that you do.

In this regrad is where a NILIF nothing in life is free program can help. I general do not link to NILIF site because there explaination (dominance reduction) for why it works is B.S. but that does not mean they don't work While the technique is the same as NILIF 'Say please" methodology and explaination are spot on. I think Tulip and you could benefit greatly from it. It tighens up and makes the rules more consitent which is important of an adolescent.

Say Please

Keep in mind the easy way to do this with a food motivated dog is to remove some or most of the kibble at meal times and use it as reward throughout the day but keeep in mind food is never the only reward you can use. For example.
For sitting calmly in front of the door while the leash is put on the dog gets to go outside.

list of Reinforces

by no means complete but it give you an idea
​

 

[Esther]

I know I frustrate the humanz. I'm a teenager and it shows.
he human has a friend that insisted that my dearly departed cousin lulu (rip) was over at that bridge guiding them to a pup that would be a holy terror for a while--you know just to make SURE that they never forgot what a sweetie she was. Enter ESTHER! I'm so naughty sometimes! BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAA

 

[roscolaylamommy]

I'm so naughty sometimes! BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAA

But you look like such an innocent angel!