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Discussion Starter #1
It sure has been an interesting experience searching for a second hound. First time we were dumb/ignorant; answered an ad in the newspaper and got an awesome hound. She was loved and cherished for 12 years. No serious health issues until the last year. Second time around, we're following all the "suggested" methods of hooking up with an "ethical" breeder but it's been like trying to grab the golden ring on a merry go round!
 

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What are the problems you are running into? Are there no litters to be found? Are the breeders giving you a hard time?
 

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Only found a few breeders that meet the "reputable" and "ethical" criteria. Many that I've contacted through BHCA are no longer breeding. Puppy Mill type operations seem to be plentiful, even with the crack down in Lanc. Co.; I refuse to go there. When I do happen upon a find, they are very protective. I'm mystified about all the "preaching" about holding the line on backyard breeders but when it comes time for sharing good stock, you gotta jump through hoops! Don't want to take out a loan either!
 

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Can't blame you.It is true some BHCA members have gotten up in years and no longer breed.Some ,like me ,only have one or two breedable bitches so litters are few and far between.I'm not trying to sale you a puppy but I will tell you I am planning a litter for the spring and if you would like to contact me please feel free to do so.
[email protected] many reputable breeders started as BYB because they could not afford the best dogs to start with and breed up.That is what I had to do,but my line is gone since Grace was my last homebred bitch and she never concived.I'm in a better place where I have many friends willing to trust me and can afford a better bitch to start over with. So,BYB ,to me is not a four letter word if they are breeding better than the parents are,you just need to be careful.
 

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Well I know Jane at Olde Fashion just whelped a litter of 13 puppies. So she should definately have some pets available in Febrary or March. I imagine more like Mid-February being that there are so many. She is a very reputable breeder and I imagine you would agree if you talked to her. Her website is www.oldefashion.com The dam of the litter is one that took a 5 point major at the BBHC specialty in conjuction with nationals and the sire took and AOM at that same show. They should be some fantastic puppies with lots of great personality. The sire is the father of my show girl and the dam is the litter mate to the stud that we used. If we hadn't just bred our litter and gotten some gorgeous show girls I would have been on the list for a dog from this litter. She sells on a strict spay/neuter contract though unless of course you are looking for a show dog.
 

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Only found a few breeders that meet the "reputable" and "ethical" criteria.
Keep in mind that that criteria is flexible. That is you must decide on you own where to draw the line because it is not a black and white issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Mikey T;105431[I said:
]Keep in mind that that criteria is flexible. That is you must decide on you own where to draw the line because it is not a black and white issue[/I].
And hence, the merry-go-round!

We're looking for a healthy female basset hound for companionship and novice participation in field events. Our family prefers the hunting line but we are keeping an open mind. Our female would definitely be spayed as we are not interested in breeding or dealing with seasonal heat cycles.

On both sides of the fence, show/conformation & hunt/field work, the experienced breeders who put the welfare of the hounds first are very guarded. This statement is not a criticism, just evidence of what makes the search difficult and why some may revert to money-maker breeding operations.

"So,BYB ,to me is not a four letter word if they are breeding better than the parents are,you just need to be careful."

How does one determine this? Would there be anything in AKC paper work that would help in defining "better"

Whenever the topic of "reputable/ethical" breeder appears on this forum, it sparks an interesting debate!

During the past year I viewed a PBS show about dog evolution that contained a segment on how breeding show lines for the perfect dog has helped to create some of the serious health issues plaguing some breeds................any comments? I'm stirring the pot!
 

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Pedigree would be one place to start.Some may advertise champion lines and the champions are third generation or further back.They have very little or nothing to affect this litter.Go to that website that has the puppy video and check out her pedigrees learn how to read one. The parents don't have to be show dogs but what is in the pedigree should be dogs with titles,hunting titles,show (CH.) obedience. The dogs that are bred may have common family members which is fine but when you put the two pedigrees together the litters pedigree should look better than just one of the parents. OK, now that I've really confused you..... The PBS show was really interesting only they don't tell you what breeders are doing today to stop breeding dogs with so many problems. Back in the day there was no testing for many of the problems breeders found in their lines,today ,breeders are putting out the money for the available tests offered. There are health foundations doing studies on many problems in dog breeds and are actually coming up with some solutions, the best being breeders should not breed those animals who could pass on problems to the next generation. But they have to care first.
 

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The parents don't have to be show dogs but what is in the pedigree should be dogs with titles,hunting titles,show (CH.) obedience.
That can be a bit of eliteism. For instance Is an AKC field trial a better judge of hunting ability when the actual never has to find a rabbit on it own vs a AHBA trial. Their is a different criteria i would not say one is better than the other but a AKC field Champion get to put a FC in front of the Name a AHBA champion not so much given AKC only recognises AKC titles there would be no indication on such a pedigree.

and novice participation in field events. Our family prefers the hunting line but we are keeping an open mind.
Without actual seeing the dog hunt it is still quite a crap shoot. While hunt lines over time should general produce a higher perponderance of respectible hunters that any given dog is going to be one of those iffy at best unless you wait to see if the pup start, Still a crap shoot but less of one. I have chance to observe Macey who is out of Mirriam (soundtracks} line and she has more skill and instinct than many I have observed out of strong hunting lines that have had more oportunity to train as well.


on how breeding show lines for the perfect dog has helped to create some of the serious health issues plaguing some breeds
By definition the perfect dog is free of genetic defects so that is not the cause of the problem. It is always one of balancing competing intrests. It is when one of those instrest takes on too much emphysis in not just a single line but multiple lines and breeders programs that become out of balance that the breed can suffer. The biggest problem however is a phenominnoen known as popular sire syndrome that can drastistical deminish the genetic deversity of a breed. In every breed there comes around once a generation or two ( human not dog) the spectacular dog that everyone that is someone must breed two. That dog can account good and bad for a huge percentage of the genetic material in the bred within a few short dog generations. This is the cause of te Von Wilbrants crises in doberman's where estimates are as little as 15-25 percent of doberman's are clear's (not affected or carrier's ) of the disease. The often suggest advice of only breed dog with no known genetic defect would result is even a greater bottleneck and huge loss of genetic diversity for the breed with potential consequence being far worse fate for the breed than if no tessting or breeding based on it were done. It is not that simple there are times when pereserving derversity is better for the breed which means breeding carrier to clears to produce clear offspring that can bused to maintain genetic diversity latter on. It can also mean breeding Affected to clears to produce all carriers and then used later to breed to clears . The issue is not as black and white as never breeding dog that are carriers or affected.

And one can not view the BBC programme which was carried by PBS to go unchallenged as well becuse there are well known and clear biasis by the producers of the program against breeding for conformation. There are those that advocate that breeding solely for purpose without regard to conformation would cure the problem but it is obvious this is clearly not a pancea either.

There are a bunch of myths regarding genetic deasease and purebred dogs that get repeates so often the become the percieved truth.

i.e. Mixed breeds are heathier and have fewer genetic defects than pure bred dogs.

This is not true What happens in pure bred dogs is that all breeds are started from a realitively small breedign population know as foundation stock. This creates a bottle neck that reduce genetic diversity in the breed in general but it critical to having a breed breed true, this bottleneck will completely eliminate some genetic defects and have some other occur much more frequently. It is an inconvient truth to eliminate the eliminiation of some defects and rather just focus on the few that occur more frequently.


Responsible Breeding Management of Genetic Disease​
Jerold S Bell DVM, Department of Clinical Sciences, Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary​
Medicine, N. Grafton, MA. [EMAIL="[email protected]"][email protected] [/EMAIL]




There is a general misconception that mixed-breed dogs are inherently free of genetic disease. This may be true for rare, breed-related disorders; but the common genetic diseases that are seen across all breeds are seen with the same frequency in mixed-breeds.

...Testing for inherited hypothyroidism (for thyroglobulin autoantibodies by Michigan State University) shows 10.7% of 55,053 tested mixed-breed dogs to be affected. The average percentage of affected dogs for all pure breeds is 7.5%.

...There are some defective disease-causing genes that mutated so long ago, that the mutation (and its associated disease) is found in evolutionary divergent breeds. The same ancestral autosomal recessive mutation for the progressive rod cone degeneration (prcd) form of progressive retinal atrophy (PRA) is shared by over 17 diverse breeds, including the American Cocker Spaniel, Australian Cattle Dog, Chinese Crested, Kuvasz, Labrador Retriever, and Toy Poodle. The list of affected breeds continues to grow as more are discovered with the same defective gene. The question is not,
"Which breeds carrie4 this defective gene during their development", but
"Which breeds did not lose this defective gene during ancestral development."
 

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Good luck on your search! You are being so responsible in finding the right dog, one day, all this effort and patience will be worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings so I retracted my question. But thanks for responding.

I missed out on Dean's litter this past summer. Family issues prevented me from taking the big step at that time. He will undoubtedly produce a litter this summer. Also hooked up with other AHBA folks who report planned litters for spring/summer. Keeping my fingers crossed that my dream will come true.

It's so hard to be patient and wait!

Thanks for your encouragement and feedback.

Hopefully, I am on the right track!
 
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