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Old 07-28-2017, 09:38 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default First time Basset owner training tips.

Hello! I am a first time owner of a 3.5 month old basset names Gus Gus. He is beautiful and absoutely loveable in every way. However, this may be because this is my first hound, he is extremely stubborn and hard to train. I have owned several other breeds; bull mastiffs, labs, german shephards and collies who have all been pretty straight forward on the training side of things. Gus just seems to live in his own world. Potty training is the hardset with him. We have a two hour schedule (shorter if hes playing or has been drinking or just woken up etc). We also have treats and lots of praise when he gets it right but it doesnt seem to be helping. He can be out for a long walk and an hour long backyard time ( with successes while he is oitside) and still come inside to relieve himself. Does anyone have any tips that may help?
Also thinking of starting crate training. Is this something others have had success with? (I've never crate trained before)
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Old 07-29-2017, 10:34 AM   #2 (permalink)
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this is my first hound, he is extremely stubborn and hard to train. I have owned several other breeds; bull mastiffs, labs, german shephards and collies who have all been pretty straight forward on the training side of things. Gus just seems to live in his own world


see https://www.petcarerx.com/article/no...og-breeds/1554

the one point I will concede in this article is beagle are harder to train than bassets I do believe 3K will concur.

The biggest thing that differentiates so called "hard to train" breed for the other is a term called biddable (meekly ready to accept and follow instructions; docile and obedient) The breed you are use to were bred to work with humans hence they are highly biddable scent hounds like bassets were bred to work independently so the are not biddable. That means any trainer that tells you that the dog show work to "please use" will get laughed in their face by a basset hound. and there techniques and methods are bound to fail. to work with any so called hard to train breed you first need to understand the dog, what drives and motivates them . You really need a deep comprehensive understanding of the following two articles

https://suzanneclothier.com/article/hard-to-train/

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Instinctive Drift

To train a "hard to Train" breed it important to understand them what motivates/drives them and the opposite as well

1. Most bassets are perpetually hungry

2. most basset have above average prey drive, they love to chase

3. A basset's connection and understand of the world is through its nose.

4. Bassets are soft. see Differentiating hard dogs from soft dogs and advice on how to handle both
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A good, hard dog will understand a correction for what it is. But while a hard dog will view an aversive correction as an altogether acceptable part of the communication process and the pathway to a more rewarding life, a soft dog will view an aggressive correction as an unacceptable form of intimidation that, for him, robbs the process of all joy.
So while a hard dog will view your forthright correction as an insignificant blip in an otherwise fun-filled process, a soft dog may take it personally, and be alienated by that exact same verbal rebuke or smack on the nose

...However, while a hard dog will instantly shake off a moderate correction like it didn't happen, soft dogs, like many Border Collies, tend to react to any brusque rebuke or sharp correction by becoming sullen, withdrawn, and uncooperative. And the more aggressively you push them, the less interest they show in getting with the program
5. Bassets react negatively to stress. By negatively I do not mean badly but in a behavioral context as removal, That is basset reaction to stress is to stop doing anything. Hence the reputation for being stubborn is more often than not a typical reaction to a stressful situation for them.

FWIW in 2005 I had a basset hound ranked in the top 10 in the country all breed for particular agility class in her jump height, Performance Snooker 12"


Personally I find basset are pretty easy to train, They are more intelligent than most breeds and if you work with what motivates them they are happy to learn and train. The previous owner of this site was also a Author for Front and Finish magazine {magazine dedicate to obedience training of dogs} She wrote a review of Stanley Coren "Intelligence of Dogs" that I thing sum up perfectly the issues and reasons why a breed like border collies are perceive to be easy to train, have a high training intellect and bassets just the opposite. That fact she owned both and trained both goes along way in adding credibility as well. unfortunately this article no longer exists on the web but excerpt I have taken for the past does
Quote:
Coren's analysis of working or obedience intelligence is by far the weakest link in his book. In attempting to rank the various breeds in terms of working intelligence, Coren found no laboratory research at all. He quickly realized how expensive a scientific study of canine intelligence would be: by his conservative estimate, a grant of at least $14 million would be necessary to acquire, house, train, and test enough individuals of the various breeds to make the study useful. Coren also attempted several sophisticated means of analyzing AKC obedience trial results before abandoning this line entirely. Ultimately, he decided to send out a survey to all obedience judges in the United States and Canada. 208 (about half of those who received the survey) responded, and he followed up about two dozen of these with a more detailed telephone interview.

I wrote to Stanley Coren and asked him to send me his original survey, which is not included in the book. The survey consisted of three parts. Part I asked the judges to score the 74 most popular dog breeds on a scale of 7 to 1 (7: one of the top breeds for obedience competition; 6: can be expected to produce a good qualifying score most of the time; 5: turns in a qualifying performance more than half of the time; 4: expected to qualify about half the time; 3: qualifies less than half the time; 2: can be expected to fail most of the time; and 1: among the worst breeds for obedience competition). Part II required the judges to rate the same dogs on a similar scale for their learning and problem-solving ability. Part III requested that the judges fill in what they consider the ten MOST intelligent and LEAST intelligent breeds of dogs. In his followup telephone interviews, Coren requested the judges' opinions on the length of time it would take selected breeds to learn simple commands, the amount of time various breeds would respond to the first command given, whether a quick performance or noticeable delays could be expected, how well the different breeds remember commands, whether practice is important for a given breed, and whether the distance at which a particular command is given appears to make a difference.

Coren uses these data to arrive at six basic clusters of working intelligence. At the top of the heap, he finds the border collie, poodle, German shepherd, golden retriever, Doberman pinscher, Shetland sheepdog, Labrador retriever, papillon, rottweiler, and Australian cattle dog. These dogs "are the brightest dogs in terms of obedience and working intelligence. Most of these breeds will begin to show an understanding of simple new commands in less than five exposures and will remember these new habits without noticeable need for practice. They obey the first command given by their handler around 95 percent of the time or better. Furthermore, they respond to commands within seconds after they are given, even when the owner is a distance away. These are clearly the top breeds along this intelligence dimension and seem to learn well even with inexperienced or relatively inept trainers" (181). At the bottom, we find the shih tzu, basset hound, mastiff, beagle, pekingese, bloodhound, borzoi, chow chow, bulldog, basenji, and Afghan hound. "During initial training, these breeds may need thirty or forty repetitions before they show the first inkling that they have a clue as to what is expected of them. It is not unusual for these dogs to require over a hundred reiterations of the basic practice activities, often spread over several training sessions, before any reliability is obtained. Even then, their performance may seem slow and unsteady. Once learning is achieved, practice sessions must be repeated a number of times; otherwise, the training seems to evaporate, and these dogs will behave as if they never learned the exercise in the first place" (185). The public and press alike love lists, and it is this analysis of working intelligence, ranked by breed, that has provided the most grist for the media mill since the book's publication earlier this year.

Unfortunately, the methodology underlying Coren's conclusions is extremely faulty. All Coren has managed to do is to obtain a rough list of the success of various breeds in the sport of dog obedience in North America; jumping from that to the number of repetitions it took the various dogs to learn commands is impossible. We can even use Coren himself to challenge his own methodology. In his analysis of adaptive intelligence, Coren includes an interesting canine IQ test. The "CIQ" consists of twelve separate tests, designed to assess the dog's learning and problem-solving ability. I tested two dogs: Connie, my own basset hound (a breed ranked in the bottom tier of intelligence) and Dream, a border collie (a member of the top echelon). The results were interesting. Connie scored in the "brilliant" category, a group that fewer than five percent of the dogs in Coren's standardization group reached (no, I didn't skew the results!). Dream, on the other hand, scored in the low average range of intelligence, where, according to Coren, a dog will need to work rather hard to understand what is required of it. Connie has obedience scores which range from a low of 173 to a high of 186; she currently has two legs on her UD (and plenty of NQ's in our quest for that elusive third leg). Dream is an OTCH who has garnered many high in trials and placed at this year's Gaines Classic. Clearly, an obedience judge seeing the two dogs in the ring would conclude that Dream was by far the easier dog to train. Yet such was not the case. Connie is an extremely quick study who retains what she learns. Dream, according to her handler, always has difficulty learning and retaining new behaviors. Obviously, only erroneous conclusions could be drawn from their respective ring performances as to the amount of time and repetition it took them to learn the commands.

The most striking difference between the two dogs is a personality issue, not a matter of anything that can be labeled "intelligence." Although Coren devotes a full chapter to what he terms the "personality factor," he does not seem to realize how critical a role it plays in the obedience ring. Connie is like many bassets: she's bright and happy to learn if you can convince her that the learning was her idea in the first place (i.e., if you train with food). But she doesn't have a strong sense of duty; if she's under stress or a bit distracted, she'd as soon not obey a command as obey it. Let's indulge in speculation and generalization for a moment, dangerous though it might be. Bassets are perfectly capable of shutting down entirely under stress; more than anything else, their tendency toward negative stress management is the reason why judges see so many slow-moving, tail-drooping, lagging bassets in the ring. Border collies are an entirely different story. Once a behavior is learned, most border collies seem to perform regardless of stress; indeed, many respond to stress by getting sharper and sharper. Dream is not such a successful obedience dog because of her learning ability. She has excelled because, quite simply, she loves to perform in the ring in front of a crowd of spectators. It is this showy sparkle--a je ne sais quoi which would never appear on a personality or intelligence test--that makes Dream unusually good; her learning pattern is all but irrelevant. My basset loves to learn new things and loves to practice but gets a bit overwhelmed in stressful situations, freezing and refusing to work at all. Again, her learning pattern would be impossible to predict in an assessment of her ring performance. In both cases, an obedience judge, based on what she sees at a trial, would be unable to make any meaningful statement about these dogs' trainability. In general, the difference between bassets and border collies is far more a difference of intensity, energy level, and desire to obey commands in the face of adversity than it is a difference of trainability or problem-solving aptitude. Coren would have done much better to follow his initial survey with phone interviews about the temperaments and personalities of particular breeds for obedience, rather than attempting to ask the judges to comment on individual learning patterns.

In corresponding with me, Coren admitted to certain methodological problems in his breed rankings, but he regards what he has produced as an acceptable first approximation. I, however, do not. I think that the book would have been far stronger if this chapter were deleted entirely. In a review in the Wall Street Journal, Manuela Hoelterhoff writes that we can all spare ourselves the trouble of assessing our dogs' intelligence and "just accept Mr. Coren's ranking of breeds in descending order of dimness. After years of observation and interrogating hundreds of vets and trainers, he has fearlessly rated 79 breeds, and the news is not good for proud owners of Afghans, basenjis and bulldogs. They are the Igors of dogdom, occupying the bottom of the list, far away from the genius-level border collies, poodles, German shepherds, and golden retrievers" (Wall Street Journal May 11, 1994: A18). It is such reasoning, however lighthearted, that makes Coren's conclusions extremely dangerous. The inherent problems in the consultation of obedience judges as "experts" are far too deep, and the influence of his conclusions in the minds of the general public is far too profound, to have allowed the rankings to stand as even a rough approximation of reality"

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Old 07-29-2017, 12:20 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Blimey - I can't 'compete' with the previous post even if I do have many years of BASSET experience. When you get stubborn, you are not approaching training the right way. This breed (hound) is best approached by using applied psychology - make them think what you want, is their idea!! But be patient. They are not slow to pick up what you want, but if you do too much too fast, you will hit a brick wall. Coming in and emptying, not outside (and do be careful with your very young puppy re over-exercising) should be 'easily' prevented (and it is down to avoidance and prevention with these), by not letting him have the entire run of the house, knowing he must need to empty. Keep him in the room by the outside door and the MOMENT he squats (I know, difficult to see until they move off ) say No! and take him outside. Give him tons of praise when he does empty outside, correct ONLY in the act and clean up the mistakes without comment. He will be watching and noting your body language. Once the bond is there, he will want to please you, not make you unhappy with him.

Provided he doesn't become unduly upset, YES .... use a crate. If only to keep him out of danger and mischief. Set it up where you mostly are during the day, cover top and sides and leave the door open so he starts to go in there for his naps. When you want to do other things - play with him, take him outside to empty, using the word you want to use for that, and back to his crate with a few puppy biscuits and shut the door. He'll complain but if you've timed it right, should settle down for a nap. And bring the crate up with you overnight - at this age you'll have to take him out to empty once overnight, for now.

For sure the Basset is never going to be as 'easy' to train as the GSD or Collie and if you wanted instant obedience, you have the wrong breed. But for sure, it can be done and I've never had one, other than a puppy we bought in at 8 weeks who was peeing for England - and did have a urinary tract problem, that I couldn't sort out.

Have fun.
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Old 07-29-2017, 03:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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He can be out for a long walk and an hour long backyard time ( with successes while he is oitside) and still come inside to relieve himself. Does anyone have any tips that may help?
exactly which means you are miss or do not understand the physiology involved

see ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Housetraining Your Puppy
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Do not rely on a puppy to tell you when it's time to go out. That is expecting too much responsibility and communication at too early an age. It is up to you, the adult human, to know when he needs to go out. Watch his activity level and the clock.
A 12 wk puppy who is busy playing may need to urinate every 15-20 minutes, whereas a resting puppy might go for an hour, and a sleeping puppy can go 8 hours at night. Activity makes urine! Activity makes urine! Repeat this 10 times, slowly. This is a very important lesson for new puppy owners
With a basset hound cut the time nearly in 1/2 figure and active pupply need to go every 10-15 minutes, so a dog walking outside will need to go 10/15 after it just went which often just about the time you take him in. easier solution. make sure he just went before bringing him in then you have the full 10-14 minute window.

1. I have never met or seen a basset I would called housetrained earlier than 6 months old.


2. IMHO basset gain the sphincter control necessary for house training much later than most breed so in the beginning with a young pup you have no hope of house training, the best you can do is manage the situation to prevent accidents which will make housetrain much more difficult in the future. A lack of accidents is not a measure of housetraining. A lack of accidents is only an indication that there is sufficient management of the dog schedule and bodily functions for housetraining to occur.


Quote:
]We have a two hour schedule (shorter if hes playing or has been drinking or just woken up etc).
see above to see why this schedule is wildly unrealistic.

Quote:
]and an hour long backyard time ( with successes while he is oitside)
To do this is a mistake. You want to be reward each and ever successful {occur where you want it to occur} elimination at the time of the elimination which means you need to be there, right there, You have +or- I second at best to properly reward behavior. If for example the dog goes out potties you tell him he is a good boy call him in and give him a reward what have you rewarded? A biddable might see your verbal praise as a reward for going but with a basset hound you did not reward going at all, at best you reward coming into the house when called. In training you get more of the behavior you reward not necessarily the behavior you want. Secondly do you want the dog going all over the yard or one particular spot. If it is one spot best to start teaching it know and going to that spot and that spot only to do his business. Dogs that only eliminate outside of leash often have a hard time going on lead. because it not part of the normal routine, better and easier to start off with the leash and eventual stop using it the try and do the reverse.

The outside is a field day for a dog that views the world through its nose He can become so excited by all the new and interesting smells that he forget the purpose of going outside. It is why a single place of elimination is helpful besides the odorific signal that this is the place to go over time it becomes boring , One wants to do what the have to do to move on to something more exciting, see for another tip on creating a single spot ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Potty Training Tip

The other area potty training often falls apart after a while and the management lessened is a signal for the dog to use to tell you he need to go out. Rather than relying on the dog to figure it out it is generally simpler and easier to teach the dog a signal to use and to teach it early on in the process.

see ClickerSolutions Training Treasures -- House Training: Ring My Bell!


Quote:
Also thinking of starting crate training. Is this something others have had success with?
I know there is a common usage of the "term crate training" to mean using a crate as a tool in housetraining but this is vastly different than actual crate training, teaching/training the dog to go into a crate without force and lie quietly in it when there. Actual using a crate for housetraining is rather unfruitful unless the dog is crate trained first.

The Problem areas when using a crate to help with house training. O don't mention these because I am against using a crate in this manner only so to teach you to avoid common mistakes

1. too large a crate. While it is general advocated to get a puppy a crate sized for what it is going to need when an adult a crate this large is general useless as a tool for housetraining. That is because a crate is suppose to mimic a den which is a single room. a Large crate to a puppy is a multiroom mansion. one corner is the dining room, another the game room a third the bath room. You see where this is going. While dogs have an instinct to keep their den clean this does not extend to every room in the house. When the crate is to large it is no longer a den, I do not advocate buy multiple size crated rather buy the big crate but by using the divider if provide or filling the crate with appropriate sized box or something similar to make the inside dimension of the crate appropriately small for the size of the puppy. expanding the size as the puppy grows.

2, Exceed the physical limits of the puppy. While a crate is usefull in teaching the dog to hold it there are physical limits on the capacity. If this happens often enough and for some dogs this can be as little or once or twice then soiling the crate becomes no big deal and it loses it effectiveness IF anything it can be a hindrance,


From the article I posted above you can see a crate can be a useful tool for when you can not immediately supervise the dog but it by no means the only tool to do this . I personally find it a useful tool but for it to be useful you must understand its limitations

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Old 07-29-2017, 03:43 PM   #5 (permalink)
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This breed (hound) is best approached by using applied psychology - make them think what you want, is their idea!!

FWIW both saying the same thing.

1. basset will do what a basset wants to do

2. in order for a basset to do what you want him to do he has got to believe there is something of value to him in doing so. ie he has to believe it is in his best interest to do it.

3. if you try and convince a basset it is his best interest to do something as a means of avoiding punishment/pain most often they are going to shut down, do nothing. So traditional training methods that are highly reliant on punishment and aversive do not work well with this breed,

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Old 07-29-2017, 03:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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For sure the Basset is never going to be as 'easy' to train as the GSD or Collie and if you wanted instant obedience, you have the wrong breed
depends on what you are training, housetrain no bassets are not quick studies but I think there is physiological factors involved. Train a basset as an attach dog or herd that would be hard. Train a GSD or Collie to scent hunt rabbit that would be hard as well, Train a basset basic obedience I find most basset quicker studies than average breed and even many of the so called easy to train breeds. The problem is most people think they will be hard to train and don't even bother attempting it. The basset with its superior intellect is better at training than most of their Human counterparts. In most household it is the basset that trained the owner not the other way round,
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Old 08-01-2017, 09:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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our bassets have been hands down easier to train than the beagles we used to have. Includes potty training and everything else.

We used a Large crate for safety.....not for potty training.

we seem to have been the exception to the housebreaking as it was very easy and quick for us.....

I have been surprised at how trainable these dogs are.........they are such creatures of routine. Ours even assume the same "begging" positions consistently.

agree with franksmum........ have fun.
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