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Old 01-12-2017, 09:35 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Peeing out stones

Hi everyone

My Inky has been peeing frequently and has started passing small, white, hard stones. What is this?
She is eating, drinking and playing as normal, she is fed a grain free high quality dry and wet food with fresh veg and meats.

Iv not experienced this before so Iv no idea what is going on with her. I don't want to start googling it as I will end up terrified.
We do have a vet appointment tomorrow.





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Old 01-12-2017, 11:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
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?? bladder stones??

Gracie has a long history of crystals in her urine and when she gets a urinary tract infection from them, she pees small amounts frequently.

sometimes with blood. Is there blood present??

she has had to go on a prescription urinary diet to help minimize the formation.

keep us posted....
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:08 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi - boy I've NEVER seen that from any of mine although our second Basset suffered with bladder stones which meant an operation and coming home with a collection of stones (which I may still have somewhere!!) But nothing as big as those. Because of the bone in the penis, males don't pass them once they get big - they just block up. Unlike bitches who can pass them and I suppose this is what's going on??

KEEP OFF THE INTERNET - the saying 'a little knowledge is (can be!) a dangerous thing' - true. And a vet once told me that I could end up worrying myself and getting no proper answers. Again true!

Collect some urine and take it with you, and the sooner you can get her examined, the urine tested and so on, the better. And do keep a close eye on her going to excessive squatting with not much coming out - she could have a big 'stone' which could still cause a blockage.

How you go forward with this will depend on which of the two types of stones she has, if this is what she has. Some can be controlled with the right diet, and some dissolved without needing surgery. But don't anticipate any of that - see your vet.

I hope she'll be okay, obviously and without the need for surgery!

Kidney stones - Bladder stones ...... http://www.peteducation.com/article....2+2114&aid=400
http://www.vcahospitals.com/main/pet...s-in-dogs/5842

Last edited by FranksMum; 01-13-2017 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
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can also be kidney stone. There are number of types of stones and treatment varies on the type of stone hand on to them for analysis by a vet

Struvite stones most common in felmales related to UTI can be dissolved
Struvite Stones (Canine) - Mar Vista Animal Medical Center

Oxalate Stone not common in females will not dissolve must be surgically removed diet can help in reducing formation
Calcium Oxalate Stones (Canine) - Mar Vista Animal Medical Center

uric stone would be bizarre to occur in basset hound
Uric Acid Stones (Canine) - Mar Vista Animal Medical Center

kidney stones
Kidney Stones in Dogs | petMD
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:16 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Just got home from the vets.
She is having an xray on Monday to see if there are any more stones and if they are in the bladder or the kidneys. The vet couldn't feel anymore stones, usually that means there are no big ones but there could be some smaller ones. I gave the vet a urine sample (her first morning wee) he is going to test that to find out if her pee is Acidic or Alkaline, I all so gave him the 3 stones I have seen her pass he said he might get those analysed that depends on what the urine sample tells him.
The vet told me I will have to change her diet to a commercial food designed to stop the body producing the stones, something like Royal Canin, Science plan, hills etc I have a problem with this as we all know they are full of rubbish and grains etc....I have spent years finding a quality grain free food for her as she becomes very sick on commercial crap kibble. What do you guys feed your hound? Would a raw diet work? I would rather cook for her myself than put her on that rubbish! But how do I know I am giving her what she needs?
Thanks for advice !
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:35 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I use taste of the wild which is grain free, or certain flavors are. I think their website has the ingredients for each. But, I'm also not sure if maybe some ingredient is in grain free or the food you feed your dog that might be causing these stones.
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:27 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The vet told me I will have to change her diet to a commercial food designed to stop the body producing the stones, something like Royal Canin, Science plan, hills
These are THE 3 makes of Dog Food vets ALWAYS promote and like you, regardless of what's going on with these stones, wouldn't touch any of them. And much as I've never felt confident enough to raw feed, to make sure I was giving a balanced diet, this may be your answer. BUT you can't make any decisions until you know the make-up of these stones and whether they can be dissolved with diet, or whether she will have to be opened up - surgery and then put on an appropriate diet to prevent them recurring.
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Old 01-16-2017, 11:25 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Test results back-
She has acidic pee and cystine stones in her bladder. Very tiny ones that she will pass so no surgery at the moment. The vet has told me I have to put her on a royal canin medicated diet to break up and stop the stones forming and have monthly urine tests.
I am going to have to do this but it goes against everything I have learnt! This food is full of rubbish and will make her sick again. Iv found some urine strip tests I can buy and do at home to keep a check on her acid level in her pee.
Does anyone know of an alternative diet that has worked for there basset that has these stones?! Raw? Home cooked? Iv read that a cranberry supplement probiotics can help .... advice please.


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Old 01-16-2017, 04:49 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Urinary Tract / Kidney Stones (Cystine) in Dogs | petMD
'the veterinarian will usually recommend using treatment options such as a special diet and medication -- N-(2-mercaptopropionyl)glycine (2-MPG) -- to reduce and eliminate the stones without surgery."



Canine Cystinuria Treatment
"Can I dissolve cystine stones with diet?

No, they cannot be dissolved with diet or supplementation.

Can cystinuria be controlled by diet, supplements, or medications?

Although a reduced-protein diet is usually prescribed for this condition, the actual experiences of people who have attempted to prevent stone formation with diet have not been positive. And while it is hard for cystine stones to form in alkaline urine (dog urine is normally acidic), maintaining a constant alkaline urine with diet or supplements is difficult, and can lead to the formation of other types of stone. Furthermore, since cystine stones do not dissolve in alkaline urine, if the urine goes into acidity even briefly, stones can form and will not dissolve just because alakaline urine is achieved shortly thereafter. Most of us with dogs with cystinuria have had bad experiences and poor outcomes from relying on diet and supplementation to prevent stone formation in our stone-forming dogs.

The use of medications has been more successful. The drug Thiola is effective in preventing stone formation in many dogs, with few reported side effects. In fact, the single most frequently reported "side effect" is the depletion of the owner's bank account, especially for owners of large or giant breed dogs. Thiola is also an "orphan drug," and can be hard to obtain. Information on getting thiola is available from the FDA.

There is another drug that is easier to obtain and somewhat less expensive, cupramine (d-Penicillamine). This drug is associated with more side effects, but if your dog tolerates it, it might be a better choice.

Once my dog's stones are treated, can I prevent more from forming in the future?

Some veterinarians, including many well-known kidney specialists, feel strongly that cystine stones can be prevented, or the incidence greatly reduced, by feeding ultra-low-protein diets (such as Hills u/d) and alkalinizing the urine with drugs or supplements. Other veterinarians believe that diet is of minimal or no use in controlling the formation of stones, and that only the drug Thiola is effective for this purpose. You can read some intriguing research on this subject here.

On the Canine Cystinuria email list, most of us have found that diet and urinary alkalinization have failed to prevent our dogs from forming stones, and have sometimes caused other problems, including other types of stones that form in alkaline urine. Some of us are also concerned about feeding ultra-low-protein diets to dogs, particularly giant breed dogs, and dogs of breeds prone to cardiomyopathy.

Unfortunately, thiola is very expensive, prohibitively so for most owners of large dogs. For this reason, many owners of dogs with cystinuria who form stones opt for a scrotal urethrostomy even if their dog is not obstructed, because with this procedure, male dogs will tend to pass stones the way female dogs do, and the risk of obstruction is reduced, or even eliminated. (Female dogs with cystinuria rarely get a urinary obstruction from stones.) There is a description of this procedure toward the end of the page here.

All of us with dogs with cystinuria who form stones wish there was a simple way to treat or prevent these stones with diet or an accessible, affordable drug, but as of today that is not the case."


Imprimis Pharmaceuticals Begins Dispensing Lower Cost Alternative to Thiola®
"Cystinuria is an inherited disease that causes stones made of the amino acid cystine to form in the kidneys, bladder and/or urethra. There are an estimated 10,000 to 12,000 patients in the U.S. who suffer from this chronic condition and 4,000 to 5,000 of them may be candidates for Thiola. In 2014, Retrophin LLC and its CEO at the time, Martin Shkreli, acquired the licensing rights of Thiola from Mission Pharmacal Company and increased the price of Thiola 2,000% from $1.50 per tablet to $30 per tablet, resulting in cystinuria patients having to grapple with their treatment costs which may exceed more than an estimated $100,000 per year. Since Mr. Shkreli's departure from Retrophin, the high price of Thiola remains intact. "

Imprimis targets another Shkreli price hike with compounded rival to $30-per-pill Thiola | FiercePharma
"Because it's a compounding pharmacy, rather than a drug manufacturer with FDA-approved manufacturing lines and processes for each product, Imprimis must have a patient-specific script in hand to make its meds. ...The new Thiola competitor is scheduled for rollout in April(2016). Though Imprimis hasn't quoted a per-capsule price, it says that the cost of treatment would be more than 70% lower for some patients. Imprimis also plans to customize the dosage of its version, hoping to reduce the number of capsules required per day.

Imprimis Pharmaceuticals Begins Dispensing Lower Cost Alternative to Thiola®
"The company offers two customizable compounded choices:

Tiopronin DR, which is comprised of the active ingredient tiopronin along with a cellulose-based FDA-approved delayed release agent. This formulation is available in various customizable doses including 200mg and 250mg capsules.
Tiopronin-K DR is comprised of the active ingredient tiopronin along with potassium citrate in a delayed release capsule, for those patients who have had their potassium citrate dosing titrated. Potassium citrate is the first-line alkalinizing drug for the treatment of cystinuria. According to the National Organization for Rare Disorders, in addition to chelating medications such as tiopronin, potassium citrate is often co-prescribed and taken separately to make the urine more alkaline, potentially reducing cystine crystallization and stone formation.
Imprimis' tiopronin compounded formulations may not only significantly lower the cost of cystinuria treatments but also allow patients, for the first time, to reduce the number of pills they consume on a daily basis for this chronic genetic disease. Imprimis' exclusive NDC code for tiopronin should allow patients and their insurance companies to experience a reduction of at least 60% in costs compared to the FDA-approved Thiola per 100mg dose. Many health insurance plans cover compounded drugs and patients not covered will benefit from the Imprimis Cares patient access program. Finally, many insurance companies and pharmacy benefit managers have developed or are developing programs to provide patients with lower-cost alternatives to certain FDA-approved branded and generic drugs. "


Quote:
Iv read that a cranberry supplement probiotics can help .... advice please.
NOT WITH CYSTINE CRYSTALS

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/cystinuria/
Drugs that may be prescribed to make the urine more alkaline include potassium citrate, and acetazolamide. This treatment is accompanied by dietary salt restriction.

Another approach to the treatment of Cystinuria is administration of d- penicillamine, although there are some risks of side effects with this drug. D-penicillamine promotes the formation of cystine in a different chemical form (mixed disulfide), which is more soluble in the urine and is excreted.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...?dopt=Abstract
Twenty-six different breeds were recognized, and the most common breeds were Dachshunds, Tibetan Spaniels, and Basset Hounds. In 76 of 88 treated dogs (86%), re-formation of cystine uroliths was prevented. Recurrence rate of cystine uroliths changed from 7 months before to 18 months during tiopronin treatment. On 28 occasions, bladder stones were found, and in about 60% of the dogs, the uroliths dissolved. Quantitative measurement of the urinary excretion of cystine showed a significantly (P < .03) higher excretion of cystine in dogs with recurrent urolith formation than in dogs with only 1 urolith episode. Another finding was a significant (P = .02) decrease in urinary cystine excretion in older (>5 years) than in younger (<5 years) dogs. Adverse effects were found in 11 dogs, and the most severe signs were aggressiveness and myopathy. All signs disappeared when tiopronin treatment was stopped. In conclusion, this study emphasizes the importance of an individual strategy for lifelong treatment of cystinuria. In addition to increasing water intake, chemical modification of the cysteine molecule into a more soluble form by means of tiopronin is useful. In dogs with re-formed cystine uroliths, dissolution may be induced by increasing the tiopronin dosage to 40 mg/kg body weight per day. In dogs with a low urolith recurrence rate and low urinary cystine excretion, the tiopronin dosage may be decreased or treatment discontinued.

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Old 01-16-2017, 05:21 PM   #10 (permalink)
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DogAware.com Articles: Urate, Cystine and Less Common Urinary Stones

"Cystine stones

Photo of Mastiff, one of the breeds prone to cystinuria.
Cystine is a sulfur-containing amino acid essential to the health of skin, hair, bones, and connective tissue. Excess cystine is normally filtered by the kidneys so that it doesn’t enter the urine, but some dogs and humans are born with cystinuria, an inherited metabolic disorder that prevents this filtering action. When cystine passes into the urine, it can form crystals and uroliths.

Cystine stones are rare, representing 1 percent or less of uroliths identified in laboratories. Although any breed can develop cystinuria, certain breeds are most affected. An estimated 10 percent of male Mastiffs (pictured at right) have cystinuria. It is also common in Newfoundlands, English Bulldogs, Scottish Deerhounds, Dachshunds, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and Chihuahuas. Cystine stones are faintly radiopaque, which makes them more difficult to see on X-rays than stones that contain calcium.
There are at least two types of cystinuria. The more severe form affects Newfoundlands and, rarely, Labrador Retrievers, and possibly some other breeds and mixes. In these dogs, males and females are equally affected (though as always, males are more likely to become obstructed). The age at onset can be as young as 6 months to 1 year. Recurrence of stones following surgery is more rapid in these dogs, and they are more likely to form kidney stones. The gene that causes cystinuria in these breeds has been identified and a simple, reliable genetic test can identify both affected dogs and carriers.
In other breeds, dogs with cystinuria are almost always male. No genetic test is available for them, though the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine (PennVet) is collecting blood samples from affected Mastiffs and their genetic relatives to try to produce a DNA test. The average age at onset of clinical signs is about 5 years.

A basic urinalysis can sometimes detect cystine in urine, though this is the least reliable method of detection. A nitroprusside (NP) test performed at the University of Pennsylvania (PennGen) is considered more reliable. A quantitative amino acid analysis performed by PennGen or a human medical laboratory is most reliable but very expensive. If cystine is found in the urine on any of these tests, the diagnosis is considered positive for cystinuria, though that doesn’t necessarily mean the dog will form stones. Unfortunately, a negative result on any of these tests does not guarantee that the dog is “clear.” Note that sulfa drugs and supplements, including sulfa antibiotics, MSM and Deramaxx, may cause false positive results.
“Cystinuria is a particularly frustrating condition to manage,” says San Francisco Chronicle pet columnist Christie Keith, who started a Canine Cystinuria e-mail list and website when one of her Scottish Deerhounds developed cystine uroliths. “A dog known to have cystinuria may go his whole life without obstructing, while another dog, never diagnosed, can have a life-threatening obstruction as his first symptom. It's not known at this time why some dogs with cystinuria form stones and others do not.”
Cystine, like all amino acids, is one of the building blocks of protein. That's why most veterinarians (including many kidney specialists) prescribe a low-protein diet, speculating that reducing cystine supply will reduce the formation of cystine stones. Another common recommendation is to alkalize the dog’s urine because cystine stones form in acid urine.
Unfortunately, says Keith, these strategies are ineffective. “Most of us on the Canine Cystinuria list have found that diet and urinary alkalization have failed to prevent our dogs from forming stones,” she says, “and they have sometimes caused other problems, including other types of stones that form in alkaline urine. If the urine goes into acidity even briefly, cystine stones can form and they won’t dissolve just because alkaline urine is achieved soon after. In addition, feeding ultra-low-protein diets can be dangerous, especially to giant breeds and breeds prone to cardiomyopathy.” (SeeThe Side Effects of Low-Protein Diets below.)
It’s important to provide your dog with extra fluids and frequent opportunities to urinate in order to keep his urine from becoming supersaturated. Salt should not be added to increase fluid consumption for dogs with cystinuria; according to studies conducted on humans, a low-sodium diet may decrease the amount of cystine in the urine.
If urine alkalization is attempted, the target pH is 7.0 to 7.5; higher can predispose dogs to calcium phosphate uroliths. Potassium citrate is preferred for alkalization when needed rather than sodium bicarbonate because sodium may enhance cystinuria.
Cystine stones cannot be dissolved with diet or supplements, but two prescription drugs can help dissolve and prevent them. Cuprimine (d-penicillamine) has potentially serious side effects but is less expensive and more readily available, and many dogs do well on it. According to Keith, Thiola (tiopronin, also referred to as 2-mercaptopropionylglycine or 2-MPG), has fewer side effects, but one of them is the depletion of the owner’s bank account. Maintaining a giant-breed dog on Thiola can cost as much as $500 per month. Because the severity of cystinuria tends to decline with age, the dosage of preventative medications can sometimes be decreased or even stopped.
Dissolution requires a combination of medication, low-protein diet, and urinary alkalinization. Even then it may not be successful or practical for a dog with numerous stones. When it does work, dissolution commonly takes one to three months.
For some dogs, the solution has come not from prevention strategies or medication but from surgery. “It sounds extreme,” says Keith, “but many of us who have stone-forming male dogs with cystinuria have opted for a scrotal urethrostomy. This surgery redirects the dog’s urethra away from the penis to a new, surgically created opening in front of the scrotum.”
The wider opening that results enables males to more easily pass small stones and helps to prevent urinary blockages. “While future obstruction is not impossible,” says Keith, “this procedure reduces the risk substantially.” Still, she cautions, this surgery should not be undertaken lightly. It’s expensive, requiring the expertise of a skilled board-certified surgeon, and because the affected area is rich in blood vessels, there can be significant post-surgical bleeding, though the surgery is not particularly painful.
“The good news,” she says, “is that many dogs, including stone-formers and those who had serious complications when their condition was first diagnosed, have lived not just normal but longer-than-normal lives.”
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