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Old 03-14-2016, 06:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Anyone have any thoughts on the best training for a 7 month old. a book or method? Beau is the greatest dog but needs to be better behaved. Any thoughts are appreciated.
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Old 03-14-2016, 07:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
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others will weigh in with great ideas.

we went to a small training class that used "positive" techniques and food rewards.

there were 3 pups including ours. everything was upbeat and encouraging.
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Old 03-14-2016, 09:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
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We took him to puppy basic obedience but if you don't have food in your hand or he doesn't feel like doing something he just doesn't do it. Thats why looking for some instructions
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Old 03-15-2016, 12:50 AM   #4 (permalink)
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LOL sorry Jim don't mean to laugh but same thing happened with my first basset, took her to obedience class , like yours if no food or didn't feel like it, there was no way, all she did was jump around and want to socialize, there were 5 8 month olds, I was told there wasn't much more they could show me, as a basset is a basset, she flunked kindergarten , lol, she turned out to be one of the best , her cuteness helped, they are such lovable animals, they do learn, it is repetitive teaching, good luck
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Old 03-15-2016, 05:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I was giggling from the moment I saw the subject here. Training and Bassets don't really belong in the same sentence. It's a matter of applied psychology. Making the hound think what you want, was their idea!! Otherwise you are a collision course and will achieve nothing. Of course there are those who will 'train' but most of the time this really is down to the owner having found the key to unlock their brain. And rest assured, there is a brain But it's tempered with the natural ability for the hound not to jump when you say jump. This isn't a Border Collie!

All I can offer, after being 'with Basset' since 1972 is persevere, be clear in what you want, be reasonable, and keep to a routine they will recognise. Oh and avoid what produces unwanted behaviour. Once you get stubborn, you are approaching what you want from the wrong direction. And will continue to get stubborn.

Actually I have never had a Basset I couldn't work with, again not expecting 'instant'. I had more problems early on with my Whippet but even with her, once I figured out what made her tick, all was fine.

Don't lose your patience.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:03 AM   #6 (permalink)
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One class is not going to do it, keep going until you and the dog have it down pat.
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Old 03-15-2016, 09:46 AM   #7 (permalink)
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" he doesn't feel like doing something he just doesn't do it."


there are two important aspects to dog training.The first is relatively easy that pairing a certain behavior with a cue/command. The second and hard part is giving value to performing that behavior to the dog.

Grow the Value | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

Respecting the Value | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

https://susangarrett.wordpress.com/t...ferring-value/

There is Hope: One Trainer's Journey from Liverwurst to Kibble - eileenanddogseileenanddogs

"if you don't have food in your hand "

this is a common problem for a lot of people that train with food. You will find a lot of traditional/compulsion based trainers will blame food itself, which is not the case but rather how it is used or not used. That is if food in the hand in necessary to get a behavior then 1. Food is being used as a bribe not a reward and 2. It has become in the dogs mind a precondition for performing the behavior,.

Lures, Rewards and Bribes | Dog Star Daily
"Bribes

A bribe is offered, or promised, before a required behavior in an attempt to coerce the trainee to perform the specific task, usually against its will. Unlike luring, which is a precise educational process used to teach a willing puppy and/or novice dog the meaning of the Request, we assume bribed individuals know what we want, but simply just don't want to do it. Thus, bribery is a coercive attempt to corrupt the will of the trainee. And as such it is bound to failure. Additionally, when a dog doesn’t want to do what his owner asks, the training program is already off-track and the dog/owner relationship is out of whack. Now, that is not to say, all dogs will always comply. On the contrary, the integral purpose of reward training is to teach the dog to want to comply. Teaching willing and eager compliance is easily accomplished using rewards, but not with bribes.

Unlike reward training, whereby specific and desired behaviors are reinforced by rewarding the dog after he has responded, bribes are offered or promised before the dog has done anything. In a sense, a bribe is an attempt to reinforce a response before it has happened, which of course is theoretically and practically impossible!

Not only is bribery ineffective, it creates all sorts of training problems. Some trainees may gladly accept the bribe but then still refuse to do what the trainer wants. Other trainees may comply if a bribe is in the offing but otherwise refuse. Indeed, bribe-contingent reliability is the most common problem created by dog trainers, parents and politicians misusing (otherwise extremely effective) lures and rewards as bribes."

http://suzanneclothier.com/pdfs/Rewa...d%20Bribes.pdf

4 Paws University Sacramento Dog Obedience Training

Food Rewards in Dog Training

If using food as a lure it must be faded quickly and early in the process or it will become a pre cue that is a precondition that must exist before the dog performs the behavior.

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -How You Get Behavior Really Does Matter
"Luring. Luring is a hands-off method of guiding the dog through a behavior. Lures are usually food but may be target sticks or anything else the dog will follow. A common method of luring the sit is to hold food in front of the dog’s nose, and then move the food up and back. As the dog’s head follows the food, generally the back end will drop to the floor.

Pros: Luring is fast and flexible, and it’s easy for beginners.
Cons: Lures must be faded early or they become part of the behavior, and properly fading a lure is not easy for beginners. Luring, like molding, requires little mental effort by the dog. You’re telling him everything he needs to know, and helping the dog becomes habitual—for both of you."

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The Keys to Successful Clicker Training
"A reinforcer is presented AFTER the behavior, not used to induce it. If you regularly use food to induce the behavior - holding up a treat to get your dog to come to you, for example - the treat becomes part of the context of the behavior. The dog won't perform the behavior without the treat present because THAT'S HOW IT WAS TRAINED.

Some people use food lures when they are first teaching a dog a new behavior. If you choose to do this, fade the food - lure with just your empty hand - after only a few repetitions. The more repetitions you do with the food present, the more dependent on the food the behavior becomes."

https://susangarrett.wordpress.com/2...baileys-reply/
" I have a reputation that I do not allow luring and it is a well deserved rep, because I don’t allow it. It is not because I don’t see there may be an occasional use for it in dog training, it is just that I have found IF I allow it at all, it never goes away. People don’t need my help to learn how to use a lure, they need it to teach dogs to be willing to offer responses. If I don’t allow students to lure ever, they become brilliant with the great skill of learning to shape behaviours. As I have said a hundred times (when people say to me “but Bob Bailey says just get the behaviour!”) “if you need a lure to prompt the easy responses from your dog, why the heck do you think your dog will start to offer you the more complex ones.” In other words, if you get used to luring, and your session always starts with luring then you are not going to have an opportunity to work through the hierarchy of prompts that Bob has suggested (a golden list btw people), as your dog will always just stand around waiting for you to start the show!"
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Old 03-15-2016, 10:10 AM   #8 (permalink)
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"One class is not going to do it, "


There are many difference in how dogs and people learn and one of the basic differences that leads to a lot of frustration is Generalization vs Discrimination.

Humans generalize, they learn something new and they try and apply what they learned to different circumstances etc. Dog we dogs rarely generalize they discriminate. How is this situation different than the last , what are the new rules for this situation. Teach a dog to sit in the Kitchen before feed him and that is what you have taught , Not how to sit. Dog not in the Kitchen training loses meaning , not before meal time looses meaning. Simply you must train the dog in multiple locations, times situations, varying distraction 1,000s and tens of thousands of time to have any hope of a behavior being generalized and even then it may never happen

Generalization | clickersolutions
"Generalization is the ability to apply a concept to a situation different from the one it was initially learned in. Humans do this quite easily and quite naturally. For example, when you learned to write, you didn’t have to relearn the process when you went from school to home, changed from notebook paper to poster board, or switched from pencils to ballpoint pens. Generalization is “big picture.”
Discrimination, by contrast, is the ability to focus on the smaller picture -– the details. Humans generalize more easily than they discriminate. Police offices, for example, spend hours and hours honing their observation skills. Dogs, however, are master discriminators. “Sit” doesn’t necessarily mean “put your bum on the ground” to a dog. With improper generalization, sit may mean “Put your bum on the ground directly in front of mom when she is in the kitchen standing next to counter wearing a bait bag and holding a clicker and cookie.” Now that’s discrimination!
Generalization is considerably more challenging for dogs. Except for aversives, which they generalize easily (though frequently inappropriately) as an instinctive survival mechanism, dogs must work as hard to learn to generalize as humans must work to discriminate.
When dog trainers speak of generalizing a behavior, their goal is to teach the dog that a cue and its associated behavior apply in more than one environment. This process includes more than practicing the behavior in more than one location, however. Let’s review the example I gave above: With improper generalization, sit may mean “Put your bum on the ground directly in front of mom when she is in the kitchen standing next to counter wearing a bait bag and holding a clicker and cookie.” There’s a lot more than location to generalize there.
The key to generalization is variability. Unless you want your naturally-discriminating dog to conclude that something in the environment is a necessary element of a behavior, you must make sure that nothing but the true cues (called discriminative stimuli) remain consistent during training."

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Generalization versus Discrimination

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The Sit Test
"The purpose of the "Sit Test" is to provide an objective assessment of performance-reliability for basic obedience commands. Why? So that instead of reprimanding the dog for "misbehaving," the trainer steps back and reflects on the real reasons for the dog's "disobedience," i.e., lack of proofing and reliability training prior to pattern training ...

Even minor changes in routine can produce dramatic decreases in reliability. For example, it is easy to demonstrate that an OTCh dog doesn't really know what "Sit" means. Dogs are extremely fine discriminators. If the dog has been taught to "Sit" for supper in the kitchen, or to heel-sit and front and finish in obedience class, that's precisely what the dog learns -- to sit in the kichen and in class. The same dog may occasionally not sit in the obedience ring, while playing in the park, or while greeting visitors at the front door. The dog must be trained in an infinite number of situations for it to generalise the "Sit" command to all instances. (This is in marked contrast to people, many of whom will generalise at the drop of a hat - sometimes from a single experience)."

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Old 03-15-2016, 10:58 AM   #9 (permalink)
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" a book or method?"

A good dog training classes are not about training the dog!!!!

They are all about training the human to be able to train the dog. Dog training is still more art than science. There is no single method that will work with all dogs and all humans. It is about find what works best for you and your dog in a given situation. This will be different and need to be modified adjusted if you were to train a different dog and so on. Part of the process is learning when a tweak need to be made and what that tweak is vs wholesale change vs giving it more time,. There is no substitute for experience,

No matter how good of a trainer you are you need feed back. from an outside neutral observer. That is the importance of classes that you just can not get any other way, Though video taping a training session and watching it back a few days later can sometimes come close.

One can not learn to much about dog training. Every technique/method has worth even if it is a method you would never use. But if you are newish to dog training the vast disparity between methods can be very daunting and confusing,My suggestion is to thinking about a training philosophy. And then look toward methods that compliment that philosophy.

https://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/

Leerburg | Ed Frawley's Philosophy of Dog Training

RELATIONSHIP BASED DOG TRAINING PHILOSOPHY

ABC Dog Training Philosophy | Animal Behavior College

Training Philosophy | The Peaceful Dog

San Francisco Dog Trainer Jeff Stallings' Philosophy

TRAINING PHILOSOPHY & METHOD : Dog Training

Our Philosophy - Dog Training Bark Busters USA

The dog trainer's trainer - Dogtime

https://www.canyoncrestk9.com/training_philosophy.php

Amazon Amazon

slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2010/12/good_dog_bad_dog.html
"Truth is, all these methods can work. Dogs are marvelously adaptive. There are many roads to the rainbow. Rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior both have the same end in view: more good behavior. For better or worse—in this generation and the next, no matter what the prevailing wisdom—dogs really do care what we think."

The list is only to give you a idea what is out there not as recommendations. It does not matter how good something works for somebody else, If you do not believe in it it not going to work. If you are worried about hurting the dog you are not going to be able to correctly and effectively administer a leash correct required of Kohler method. If you think training with food is going to make the dog dependant on it all the time, that is what is going to happen if you try to train with food.

When looking for a training method IMHO it is most important that it be a method that the Human is comfortable with first. That is the dog is more adaptable than the human in this regard.
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Old 03-15-2016, 11:04 AM   #10 (permalink)
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" a book or method?"

A good dog training classes are not about training the dog!!!!

They are all about training the human to be able to train the dog. Dog training is still more art than science. There is no single method that will work with all dogs and all humans. It is about find what works best for you and your dog in a given situation. This will be different and need to be modified adjusted if you were to train a different dog and so on. Part of the process is learning when a tweak need to be made and what that tweak is vs wholesale change vs giving it more time,. There is no substitute for experience,

No matter how good of a trainer you are you need feed back. from an outside neutral observer. That is the importance of classes that you just can not get any other way, Though video taping a training session and watching it back a few days later can sometimes come close.

One can not learn to much about dog training. Every technique/method has worth even if it is a method you would never use. But if you are newish to dog training the vast disparity between methods can be very daunting and confusing,My suggestion is to thinking about a training philosophy. And then look toward methods that compliment that philosophy.

https://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/

Leerburg | Ed Frawley's Philosophy of Dog Training

RELATIONSHIP BASED DOG TRAINING PHILOSOPHY

ABC Dog Training Philosophy | Animal Behavior College

Training Philosophy | The Peaceful Dog

San Francisco Dog Trainer Jeff Stallings' Philosophy

TRAINING PHILOSOPHY & METHOD : Dog Training

Our Philosophy - Dog Training Bark Busters USA

The dog trainer's trainer - Dogtime

https://www.canyoncrestk9.com/training_philosophy.php

The Koehler Method of Dog Training - Kindle edition by William R. Koehler. Crafts, Hobbies & Home Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. The Koehler Method of Dog Training - Kindle edition by William R. Koehler. Crafts, Hobbies & Home Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2010/12/good_dog_bad_dog.html
"Truth is, all these methods can work. Dogs are marvelously adaptive. There are many roads to the rainbow. Rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior both have the same end in view: more good behavior. For better or worse—in this generation and the next, no matter what the prevailing wisdom—dogs really do care what we think."

The list is only to give you a idea what is out there not as recommendations. It does not matter how good something works for somebody else, If you do not believe in it it not going to work. If you are worried about hurting the dog you are not going to be able to correctly and effectively administer a leash correct required of Kohler method. If you think training with food is going to make the dog dependant on it all the time, that is what is going to happen if you try to train with food.

When looking for a training method IMHO it is most important that it be a method that the Human is comfortable with first. That is the dog is more adaptable than the human in this regard.
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