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Old 09-04-2015, 11:10 AM   #11 (permalink)
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1 this is my first post the others have been by my better half.

I'm sorry but I completely and utterly disagree that making a dog submit is risky. There is nothing risky about it and I am extremely educated in dog training. It goes back to the dogs own nature. And a dog in a pack
1. dogs do not form packs. they form loose associations in which dogs move in and out of constantly nothing at al similar to a wolf pack. There is also no discernable Hierarchy in such associations. see
The term ‘‘dominance’’ is widely used in the academic and popular literature on the behavior
of domestic dogs, especially in the context of aggression. Although dominance is correctly a property
of relationships, it has been erroneously used to describe a supposed trait of individual dogs, even
though there is little evidence that such a trait exists. When used correctly to describe a relationship
between 2 individuals, it tends to be misapplied as a motivation for social interactions, rather than simply
a quality of that relationship. Hence, it is commonly suggested that a desire ‘to be dominant’ actually
drives behavior, especially aggression, in the domestic dog. By contrast, many recent studies of
wolf packs have questioned whether there is any direct correspondence between dominance within a
relationship and agonistic behavior, and in contrast to wolves, hierarchical social structures have little
relationship with reproductive behavior in feral dog packs. Nor do the exchanges of aggressive and submissive
behavior in feral dogs, originally published by S. K. Pal and coworkers, fit the pattern predicted
from wolf behavior, especially the submissive behavior observed between members of different packs.
In the present study of a freely interacting group of neutered male domestic dogs, pairwise relationships
were evident, but no overall hierarchy could be detected. Since there seems to be little empirical
basis for wolf-type dominance hierarchies in dogs, the authors have examined alternative constructs.
Parker’s Resource Holding Potential (RHP) appears to be less useful when applied to domestic dogs
than to other species, although it has the advantage of incorporating the concept of subjective resource
value (V) as a factor influencing whether or not conflicts are escalated. The authors propose that associative
learning, combined with V, can provide more parsimonious explanations for agonistic behavior
in dogs than can the traditional concept of dominance.
2. Even if dogs did for pack the concept they form packs with us is simply ludicris. There is no evidence of any animal form a pack like structure that includes another species. Dog know humans are not dogs.

3. Leadership is about control of resources not physical dominance from Ray Coppinger. Never get into a physical confrontation with a dog unless you are willing to fight to the death because the dog may be willing to take it that far. When you get into a physical confrontation with a dog it has 3 option two of which are quite bad and the third no desirable. One escalate that is fight back with even more force, two run away, three shut down

4. Much of what Ceasar describes as calm submissive behavior is not. it is quite simply the dog has total shut down which is very harmful to relationship building Calm Submissive - eileenanddogseileenanddogs
Shut Down Dogs, Part 1 - eileenanddogseileenanddogs

5. Submissive behavior in wolf pack is not coerced but voluntarily given Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME
Wolf Country, the pack, body postures and social structure

6. So called dominance reduction exercises do not reduce aggression
he concept of dominance — or “alpha,” meaning the highest ranked individual — originally came from some studies of wolf packs in the 1940s. The concept was catchy, and when it trickled down to popular dog culture, it took hold with the power of mythology. It quickly became “common knowledge” that domestic dogs are naturally dominant or will become so if their people tolerate certain behaviors. These dogs, it was claimed, will constantly challenge and test their owners until they are forcefully shown human leadership.

So-called dominance exercises were — and in some circles still are — widely recommended to prevent the dog from taking over the entire household. These exercises include not feeding him until after you’ve eaten, letting him through doorways only after you, forbidding access to furniture, and not playing tug-of-war.

In reality, there is no evidence that these procedures prevent dominance aggression or any other behavioral problem. One study found no correlation between playing tug-of-war or allowing a dog on the bed and the development of aggressive behavior.
7. and the most important New Study Finds Popular “Alpha Dog” Training Techniques Can Cause More Harm than Good | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

re-emergence of dominance theory and
forcing dogs and other animals into
submission as a means of preventing and
correcting behavior problems.
For decades,

some traditional animal training has relied on
dominance theory and has assumed that animals
misbehave primarily because they are striving
for higher rank. This idea often leads trainers to
believe that force or coercion must be used to
modify these undesirable behaviors.
In the last several decades, our understanding
of dominance theory and of the behavior of domesticated
animals and their wild counterparts
has grown considerably, leading to updated
views. To understand how and whether to apply
dominance theory to behavior in animals, it’s
imperative that one first ....
How Leadership Differs
from Dominance
The AVSAB clarifies that
dominance and leadership
are not synonymous. In
the human-related fields of
business management and
sociology, where leadership
is studied extensively,
leadership is defined broadly
by some as “the process
of influencing activities of
an individual or group to
achieve a certain objective
in a given situation” (Dubrin
1990, in Barker 1997).
Despite this definition, which
includes influence through
coercion, scholars in these
fields recommend against the
use of coercion and force to
attempt to gain leadership
(Benowitz 2001). Coercion
and force generate passive
resistance, tend to require
continual pressure and direction
from the leader, and are
usually not good tactics for
getting the best performance
from a team (Benowitz
2001). Additionally, those
managers who rule through coercive power (the
ability to punish) “most often generate resistance
which may lead workers to deliberately avoid
carrying out instructions or to disobey orders”
(Benowitz 2001).
Similarly with pets, leadership should be
attained by more positive means—by rewarding
appropriate behaviors and using desired
resources as reinforcers for these behaviors.
Leadership is established when a pet owner
can consistently set clear limits for behavior
and effectively communicate the rules by immediately
rewarding the correct behaviors and
preventing access to or removing the rewards for
undesirable behaviors before these undesirable
behaviors are reinforced. Owners must avoid
reinforcing undesirable behaviors and only reinforce
the desirable behaviors frequently enough
and consistently enough for the good behaviors
to become a habit (Yin 2007).
Finally, AVSAB points out that while aggression
between both domesticated and wild animals
can be related to the desire to attain higher
rank and thus priority access to resources, there
are many other causes. These are discussed in
detail in multiple veterinary behavior textbooks
Consequently, dominance should not be
automatically presumed to be the cause of such
conflicts, especially when the conflict occurs
within a human household. Instead, a thorough
medical and behavioral assessment should be
conducted on all animals involved in the conflict
to determine the true cause or causes of the
The AVSAB emphasizes that the use of scientifically
sound learning principles that apply
to all species is the accepted means of training
and modifying behavior in pets

Last edited by Mikey T; 09-04-2015 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Mikey you can source as many articles as you want. I have used this form of dog training for years and watched others use it and it works great. If it's not your choice of methods, good for you. You get to choose whatever method you want to train your dogs. And if they work for you, that's wonderful. I get to do the same and can offer advise the same way. I have some of the most well behaved dogs that I know and my basset hound has been not any harder and in some ways easier thus far to train, following the same methods with some alterations as I make for each individual dog.

To each their own. We all want the same thing: happy, loved and thriving balanced dogs. Knocking people's proven methods and being condescending is just rude and not needed. My advice is just as good as yours. Maybe different, but just as good. And those asking for advice can read the advice given, do their own research on methods suggested and pick what works best for them. Period.
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Old 09-04-2015, 06:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The guy is a charlatan & a bully, loved the interview with Alan Titchmarsh only wish Jeremy Paxman would have taken him apart.

A dog rolls over for another to show submissiveness, no dog stands over another in that position unless it's going for the throat!! Adverse training methods advocated by that man are designed & used by bullies IMOP.
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Old 09-04-2015, 09:47 PM   #14 (permalink)
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My Australian shepherd stands over just about anything to declare dominance. That's just not true, dogs absolutely stand over one another or their humans when they want to declare dominance. Not when the other animal is submitted, just in general. He will stand over my German shepherd when she is simply sitting or laying in the grass. And it room a while when he was a juvenile to teach him he could not stand over our children.

There are more then one way to skin a cat. More then one way to train dogs. More the one forms of psychology for humans and dogs a like. Doctors, dog trainers, Etc. not all use one common method. There are many. Many that are proven.

To discredit anyone who is offering good, sound, helpful and certainly NOT harmful advice is just rude, Unessecary and condescending.

You dont have to agree with Cesar Milano methods but he has helped many a person form a better and healthier relationship with their dogs and many different breeds.

I never said to try to submit an older and overly aggressive dog. No, I said having young puppies learn to submit to their owners is a great thing. Reduces aggressiveness and lays out the pack order straight from the start.

You don't like my method and prefer a different one? Great. Happy that works for you. This one works for my family, has for years, and families we have helped to train their dogs and many people across the world.

I think everyone here offers great advice. I also think we should be kind when offering advice not to cut down anyone else's so log as the advice is not clearly abusive or damaging. Mine was neither.
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Old 09-05-2015, 07:13 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vectisvagrant View Post
The guy is a charlatan & a bully, loved the interview with Alan Titchmarsh only wish Jeremy Paxman would have taken him apart.

A dog rolls over for another to show submissiveness, no dog stands over another in that position unless it's going for the throat!! Adverse training methods advocated by that man are designed & used by bullies IMOP.
Assuming you are talking about Milan - I'd totally agree and even further he has found himself a good means of making money, based on being an entertainer first and by using Common Sense with the OWNERS. If people realised how much of his filming ends up on the cutting room floor, they'd be amazed I think.

Anyhow, this latest with Max worries me a lot. One thing I have picked up on here (and I can't wade through all the latest cut/paste) is the point about observing body language. Clearly something triggered what Max did (or he has a serious issue going on!!) which should have been picked up before he went to nipping. At 12+ weeks, he shouldn't be teething yet either. This is a bad development to mouthing but again giving him the benefit of the doubt, what happened before he reacted I wonder.

I subscribe to a time out - making them, hopefully, realise bad behaviour won't be tolerated and will bring consequences and as dogs hate being ignored, ignoring them should work. But NOT by using a crate which should be the one 'safe' place the dog knows he has.

I'm just going to throw out two more ideas for 'why', neither of which might be relevant - 1. His background (breeding) and 2. Whether he has a medical problem going on..... I knew a Basset with a brain tumour go to this kind of uncalled for behaviour. Not to frighten you but .....

I think your best plan with him is not to allow a situation that produced an unwanted reaction like this, to be repeated. In other words, no face near his face and maybe not allow him up on anybody's lap.

ps Dogs don't form packs? Really?

pps........ without being able to SEE exactly what happened in this instance, it is virtually impossible to know whether this was a 'vicious' nip, or just something a bit 'over-enthusiastic'?

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Old 09-05-2015, 11:15 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I appreciate everyone's input!

I didn't read anything on him before hand, except for just looking at my sister, which I read as loving--but maybe it wasn't. It worries me too. :/

I have already nixed having the smaller kids' faces anywhere near his. The smallest are not even allowed on the floor with him because he can climb on their chests and bites their hair or nips at their faces. Only the older two girls and possibly my oldest son (they are 17, 15, and 14) I trust to be quick enough for him. My youngest son (11) is even a little wary of him.

He's mostly a very good boy, but gets SO hyper at times. And then this inexplicable nipping--even what I would call full out intention to bite (he's never landed a hard bite, and I've tried letting him with my hand, so it tells me he has at least some bite inhibition).

If no time out in his den, where should we do it? Just ignoring him doesn't always help. He sometimes chases and tries to continue the roughness.
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:21 AM   #17 (permalink)
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And yes, I don't really know if it was vicious or over enthusiastic. He didn't growl or anything before hand, and we don't punish him for that.
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Old 09-06-2015, 06:29 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by committedsalmon View Post

If no time out in his den, where should we do it? Just ignoring him doesn't always help. He sometimes chases and tries to continue the roughness.
With not using his crate - there is a way to use it as a time out without him associating being in his crate as punishment. If you stop what's going on, take him out to empty, and bring him back to his crate with a few biscuits, and shut him in there, this SHOULD help prevent him seeing this as any crate/ punishment, while providing the necessary 'time out'? Clearly you have to pull him up if he gets manic. Consequences for (unwanted) actions. Was he a singleton puppy/away from his siblings too young because it occurs to me that a big part of all this behaviour is him not being 'bashed' by his siblings in the nest when he should have had some of the 'stuffing' knocked out of him. I think you have to concentrate on trying to keep him 'calm' if possible and again not have him in any situation where he can get too manic.
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Old 09-06-2015, 09:38 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Ok, I can do that.

No, he was in a litter of 9 for 9 weeks. Which is why, I think, he has such good bite inhibition. I really think he's absorbing the energy off my kids as a way for him to get manic like he did with his siblings. My four and 6 year olds are really bouncy. My four year old is good at shutting it off when she needs to, while my six year old is not and will encourage it if I don't get to her in time.

I think something I'm learning about him is that he really doesn't like being picked up and held--at least not for too long. He's not reacted like that with me, but my sister does not live here--she's been here twice since we got him. I don't know--it's hard to figure out. But this stuff does seem to happen only when he's been picked up or someone is playing with him for awhile.

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Old 09-06-2015, 10:55 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Just a thought, does he get over tired. He's only young & though pups can be very active they also soon tire & become hyper mindless little so & so's especially when being played with by younger children even adults who don't read the signs. So how about ensuring he gets time to rest - if he doesn't already do so - quietly in his crate.
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