Button got into trouble this morning . . .

Elmer-n-Button · 02-11-2007, 08:59 AM

Since we got the dog door, we've begun letting the dogs sleep out of crates at night. This morning, we slept a little later than usual, and when I got up, Button had chewed the edge of our BRAND NEW rug in the foyer. He used to do this all the time when he was younger (I could carpet an airport with the area rugs that we've been through) But he seemed to have grown out of this. I think he was bored and wanted us to get up and make over him & the others like we do every morning. (My husband's shoes were also on the rug, and one of them, not sure who, had started to chew them) When I saw the rug, I flipped. I got down on the rug, and picked up the chewed part and said loudly Bad! Bad! Bad! I know it was Button because he's the only rug chewer and he started looking away and ashamed of himself. After I fed them, and sat down with my coffee, he didnt' even try to get in my lap! So I know he is upset that I yelled.

Question: Do you think he even knows what he did? The fact that he looked away with that baleful basset expression and acted so guilty tells me that he does. But I also know that you have to catch them in the act. But I was so upset. I had literally just gotten the rug put down on Friday after the painters left!

What what you guys do in this situation? Almost dreading what Mikey T will say. Thanks!

P. S. He has been furiously chewing and licking his filled beef bone on his bed since this happened this morning.

biscuit · 02-11-2007, 10:45 AM

I have kind of similar problems with Yogi, except he gives me a little more leeway with time.

Yogi will find something he knows will annoy me and chew on it if I'm gone too long - or if I'm gone too long two (or three) days in a row. Say, if I have to work then go to a meeting one day, and I don't get home til late, then have to leave early again the next morning.

Whenever that happens, Yogi always makes sure to send me a cross-species communique of his displeasure.

I don't know the solution. I do know that, I don't care what anyone says, I think they know exactly what they're doing and I think they remember long after the act.

Mikey T · 02-11-2007, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Question: Do you think he even knows what he did? The fact that he looked away with that baleful basset expression and acted so guilty tells me that he does. But I also know that you have to catch them in the act. But I was so upset. I had literally just gotten the rug put down on Friday after the painters left!

What what you guys do in this situation? Almost dreading what Mikey T will say. Thanks!

P. S. He has been furiously chewing and licking his filled beef bone on his bed since this happened this morning.[/b]

He know you are angry with but it is doubtful he knows why. I think Grary Wilke expressed it best, as for the reason you end up with appeasement behaviors in situations like this. in his article Jack Palance vs. Fred Astaire.

Quote:

Punishment is something we are all familiar with, but few people really understand how punishment works. For example, imagine that your dog Fido chews a couch cushion while you are away from home. When you return and see the damage, you shove the cushion in Fido's face (to show him why he is being punished) and swat him with a rolled up newspaper. The next time you come home, another pillow is damaged, but as soon as you see it, Fido looks "guilty" and ducks under the couch. You drag him out and bop him again, since his guilty look insures that he "knew he did something wrong. "

If this looks like a good example of punishment, think again. By definition, punishment causes behavior to decrease. In our example, the swats did not cause Fido to stop ripping up pillows, therefore the swats did not punish the act of ripping up pillows. Fido's owner can escalate the intensity of the "punishment" until it injures his dog but will not be able to stop the pillow ripping. That is because he is actually using negative reinforcement.

Things which increase behavior through force, intimidation, fear or avoidance are called negative reinforcers. If you sit on a thumbtack, the pain associated with the tack is a negative reinforcer, which causes you to do a behavior -- "jumping upward." The key difference between a reinforcer and a punisher is that one increases behavior, while the other one decreases behavior. In the case of our couch chewing canine, the swats and scolding did not affect the bad behavior at all. What actually happened was Fido's tendency to hide under the couch look "guilty" increased because of the harsh treatment. Those behaviors were negatively reinforced

...According to B.F. Skinner, the great behavioral psychologist, most behavior is controlled by its consequences. If there is an obvious connection between behavior (walking into a brick wall) and a consequence (striking your nose) you are unlikely to walk into brick walls, in the future. The problem for most pet owners is failing to understand how to make a connection that an animal can easily understand. In many situations, the connection is only apparent to the pet owner. Rubbing an animal's nose against a couch and then applying a swat with a newspaper is unlikely to punish couch chewing behavior. The more likely result is to increase behaviors such as escaping or cringing.[/b]

Mikey T · 02-11-2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

I don't know the solution. I do know that, I don't care what anyone says, I think they know exactly what they're doing and I think they remember long after the act.[/b]

or it just could be they actual know the consequences of such an act. THe get the attention they were lacking previously. Sometime what we percive as punishment the dog regards as a reward. In training behaviors it is not what we thinks that is important it is what the dogs thinks that is.

You Get What You Reinforce, Not What You (Necessarily) Want

Quote:

Please allow me to say that you have made a profound observation, one that many trainers don't see well, or admit to, even when it is pointed out - it is what the animal is perceiving that counts, not what we perceive or think that the animal should be perceiving. [/b]

POSITIVE TRAINING -and- EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS for DOGS (and THEIR PEOPLE)

Quote:

While the concept of rewarding "good" behavior is well understood, unwanted behaviors are often established and perfected by our dogs as a result of our inadvertent reinforcement (rewarding) of their actions. Whether we want to build a new behavior or eliminate an undesirable one, knowing what motivates your dog is key[/b]

biscuit · 02-11-2007, 05:01 PM

Can Dogs Do Math?

Any creature capable of math is capable of conjuring up devious means of making our lives miserable.

You won't convince me otherwise!!! I dare you to try!!!

SPEEDY · 02-11-2007, 09:02 PM

Whenever Speedy got mad at me, I would come home to a bunch of Pet Smart supplies at my front door that he ordered off the internet. I still can't find the credit card he used.

:P

biscuit · 02-11-2007, 09:29 PM

Speedy! It's good to see you!

And yea, I've had the same problem here - except I've come home to multiple orders of dog treats from expensive doggie delicattesans in Beverly Hills.

02-11-2007, 08:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
Elmer-n-Button Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 465	Since we got the dog door, we've begun letting the dogs sleep out of crates at night. This morning, we slept a little later than usual, and when I got up, Button had chewed the edge of our BRAND NEW rug in the foyer. He used to do this all the time when he was younger (I could carpet an airport with the area rugs that we've been through) But he seemed to have grown out of this. I think he was bored and wanted us to get up and make over him & the others like we do every morning. (My husband's shoes were also on the rug, and one of them, not sure who, had started to chew them) When I saw the rug, I flipped. I got down on the rug, and picked up the chewed part and said loudly Bad! Bad! Bad! I know it was Button because he's the only rug chewer and he started looking away and ashamed of himself. After I fed them, and sat down with my coffee, he didnt' even try to get in my lap! So I know he is upset that I yelled. Question: Do you think he even knows what he did? The fact that he looked away with that baleful basset expression and acted so guilty tells me that he does. But I also know that you have to catch them in the act. But I was so upset. I had literally just gotten the rug put down on Friday after the painters left! What what you guys do in this situation? Almost dreading what Mikey T will say. Thanks! P. S. He has been furiously chewing and licking his filled beef bone on his bed since this happened this morning. __________________ Arrrooooos from Bubby Boo, Dee Dee and Elmee Too!

02-11-2007, 10:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
biscuit Senior Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: oklahoma Posts: 5,234	I have kind of similar problems with Yogi, except he gives me a little more leeway with time. Yogi will find something he knows will annoy me and chew on it if I'm gone too long - or if I'm gone too long two (or three) days in a row. Say, if I have to work then go to a meeting one day, and I don't get home til late, then have to leave early again the next morning. Whenever that happens, Yogi always makes sure to send me a cross-species communique of his displeasure. I don't know the solution. I do know that, I don't care what anyone says, I think they know exactly what they're doing and I think they remember long after the act.

02-11-2007, 05:01 PM	#5 (permalink)
biscuit Senior Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: oklahoma Posts: 5,234	Can Dogs Do Math? Any creature capable of math is capable of conjuring up devious means of making our lives miserable. You won't convince me otherwise!!! I dare you to try!!!

02-11-2007, 09:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
SPEEDY Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Zephyrhills Fl. USA Posts: 246	Whenever Speedy got mad at me, I would come home to a bunch of Pet Smart supplies at my front door that he ordered off the internet. I still can't find the credit card he used. :P

02-11-2007, 09:29 PM	#7 (permalink)
biscuit Senior Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: oklahoma Posts: 5,234	Speedy! It's good to see you! And yea, I've had the same problem here - except I've come home to multiple orders of dog treats from expensive doggie delicattesans in Beverly Hills.

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