Valerie and George

On another board, one for Labs, a guy posted a photo essay of his recent duck hunting trip and photos of one of his dogs who had cut himself to bits forcing his way through ice to retrieve said dead ducks. He expressed amazement that "ice could cut." I posted a reply that said, essentially, I don't approve of hunting or of sending a dog into ice water to injure himself for a human's hobby. I put it a bit more diplomatically than that, however. So he posts a nasty rant to the effect that I'm an idiot and obviously don't know what "dawgs" are put on this earth to do (he always spells it that way).

I guess I'm just looking for people who understand that some of us have dogs for companionship and to love and pamper and wouldn't dream of forcing them to swim in ice water and cut themselves into bloody rags for our entertainment. I'm surprised the dog didn't get frostbite and you would have been horrified at his injuries. His chest, his legs, his tummy, his face and his neck were all torn to shreds. But he's a Lab, so he's meant to do this, and he "loves" it, according to the reprobate. He loves swimming in ice and chopping himself up? He might love pleasing his human; I'm sure he does. I'll bet he doesn't love freezing and bleeding. But several people agreed with HIM, that of course Labs are meant to do this and a "working" dog is different and blah, blah, blah.

Starr~n~Tootie

Wow. How sad.

Though I don't necessarily have an issue with dogs being used for hunting, per se, putting the dog's life and health at risk is totally unacceptable.

I think next time "dawg's" dad should have to swim through the ice for the duck, if it's so important to him.

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Tootie is going to be a big sister!
"Baby J" is due September 3, 2007.

Vision

I bet the Lab loved every minute of it to be honest.

They're a fantastic breed and buddy. Retrieving is their thing.

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Marquis de Lafayette brought Basset Hounds to the United States as a gift to George Washington

Valerie and George

We have a Lab and she doesn't seem at all inclined to retrieve but even if she was, I wouldn't send her into ice water on a cold December day.

Kerrio

Having a pack of "discard dogs" mostly bred for illegal hunting, I'm certainly not a fan of hunting with dogs, especially for "sport".

Mine are all pampered pets, and they all have baggage from their former lives.

Mikey T

Sounds like a bias that will prevent youi from understanding the "working dog" .

1. A dog does not nor ever has worked "to please and owner". A dog that works under the cues and commands of an owner does so because in the dogs belief it is in its best interest to do so. The dog works for the owner for whats in it for the dog, treats, praise, pets, socialization/companionship, fun/play etc.

2. dog once they domesticated themselves or purhaps as part of the domestication were selevtively bred for physical as well as instictual traits. Herding breeds herd, Retrievers retrieve, scent hounds track and sight hounds chase. While there are exceptions to any general rule dogs enjoy doing what they were originally bred to do. Not unlike boxers of football players that are happiest when playing the sport, a sport were injury and even death ocur.

3. Dogs are happiest when they have a dog job to do. This perhaps is the hardest concept to accept for "companion dog owners" . Jobs of course do not necessarily mean earning money but a physical and mental task that is routinely ask of the dog, dog sports such as obedience, agility, tracking fall into this catorgory as more tradional jobs of hunting, herding, sled pulling, herd guarding, guide dog, contriban detection etc. When those that have had both companion only pets/animals and dogs trained to do a job to a person say this, I tend to believe there is something to it.



"I'm surprised the dog didn't get frostbite and you would have been horrified at his injuries. His chest, his legs, his tummy, his face and his neck were all torn to shreds."
Labs, goldens and other retrievers were bred to work in "icy" water. The coat offers guite a lot of protection. Dog do and can died from hypotermia and/or frostbite however such exposure takes exponential longer time than it would for a human. Take sled dog races where dogs run for days in below zero conditions with no shelter. There only protection is there high metablism and a very high caloric/high fat diet. Trying to assess the extent of injuries from photos is not ussually very acurate. Many superfical wounds will bleed profusely making the injury worse than it looks and the opposite can equally be true, a potentially deadly puncture would may hardly bleed at all.

4. The human is the guardian of the health and well being of the dog, In general it is unethical, abusive, even some times criminal to but a dog in a stituation that the likely outcome is injury or death without some overriding factor such as the health and safety of a human. It is also important to remember than any endeavor is not without risk. A basset tracking a rabbit is often cut while tracking through briars, there are the rare ocassions that one may be accidentally shot. As you see the same is true of retrieve. Where one draws the line fair minded individuals can disagree.

"He expressed amazement that 'ice could cut.' " Let's hope the owner takes this new found knowledge of the potention for injury and the type of injury that occurs when asking the dog to retrieve again, selecting a hunting location, or where to send the dog on a retrieve from.

Now I'm confused don't drive to the vet because a dog is more likely to be killed in an car accident than being shot hunting? Hunting is ok but should be done because hunters are known to shoot one another.
The question is always one of risk assessment and mitigation. Just because someone that was not there and without all the facts might believe that injury or death was likely, does not make it so. Missing key information I personally refrain form making such an assesment.

Vision

Alright, but I've never seen one that wouldn't love to fetch.

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Marquis de Lafayette brought Basset Hounds to the United States as a gift to George Washington

Valerie and George

Mikey, with all due respect, you didn't see the photos of this dog. He was cut to ribbons. He wasn't just nicked or scratched. He had deep, open wounds. Which the hunter in question planned to stitch himself and I doubt he intends to use anesthetic.

Mikey T

Some links on the topic

"Drives" Theory

The Canine Working Class
Labrador Retrievers
[quote]The main characteristics of Labradors are their coat, tail, head and
temperament. They have a double coat: a soft, downy undercoat that
keeps them dry and warm in cold water and a hard outer coat that helps
them repel water.

...In the U.S., there are two distinct "lines" of Labradors: field lines
and show lines. Field line Labradors have been bred with an emphasis
on field or hunting ability, and show line Labradors have been bred
with an emphasis on conformation and temperament. There is some
dissension between the two groups, with field people claiming that
show lines have lost much of their hunting and retrieving abilities,
and show people claiming that field lines do not much look like
Labradors any more and lack correct temperament. The truth is likely
somewhere in between.[quote]

Valerie and George

All right, never mind. You don't understand after all. I do have a Lab, by the way. She's lying on the living room floor chewing on a tennis ball. My point wasn't that dogs in general or Labs in particular don't enjoy romping around and chasing things and being useful. For a professional writer, I seem to have failed utterly to make myself understood. So just forget the whole thing.