Educating mr Stubborn

HarveyB · 01-01-2013, 12:18 PM

Hi everyone!
I'm in the need for some advice on how to handle and train Harvey. In general he is a very happy and good little guy and we don't really have any major issues with him. But I find it very hard sometimes to get my point across. He often repeatedly does things he "knows" he isn't allowed to do (picking the bins, stealing stuff to chew on etc.) and he doesn't seem to listen to me when I say no until I give him a more physical hint like nipping him with my fingers from the neck ( not hurting but just pulling a bit on the extra skin so he notices me) or nudge him. I'm also a bit lost on how I should (or shouldn't I) punish him if he does do something bad. He has never been a biting pup but the other day he was playing and running around the house and he sort of play bit my foot as he ran by. I stopped him and walked him ( holding his neck skin since he doesn't wear a collar in the house) to his place and put him there on a time out. I didn't handle him roughly or anything but afterwards I just got the feeling I didn't maybe do the best job with that situation.

Sorry for the long rambling post but it's hard to explain since this is not really a problem with him but a general feeling of being a bit lost educating our little mr stubborn! Any tips would be welcome since Harvey is my first dog and I wouldn't wanna mess him up with bad training!!

And happy new year to all from Harvey and family!

3kbasset · 01-01-2013, 01:17 PM

as others who will post after me will tell you, these are by nature stubborn stubborn stubborn creatures.

you will benefit from a lot of hints from other members. persistence and patience and lots of praise has worked for us. I try to catch the behavior as it is being "considered" with an "uh uh".

despite that, ours will often continue to make the attempt but there have been successes. Also bits of food as a distraction can help.

No big on "punishment" per se, kind of implies they are doing things intentionally to be bad when they are likely just following their stubborn/hound/scent dog nature. We keep ours exercised and busy with things to keep her occupied/interested.

you will get there

(he's a very cute dog, by the way!)

Mikey T · 01-01-2013, 02:06 PM

Quote:

He often repeatedly does things he "knows" he isn't allowed to do (picking the bins, stealing stuff to chew on etc.)

so how does he know he is not supose to? and this is where most mortal basset owners often loose the battle. Because of how basset react o punishment. Punishing unwanted behavior rarely works. Because basset react negatively ie shut down to punishment.

and 2 the behavior they are trying to end is inheriently self rewarding an owner is not willing or capable of using a punishment strong enough that will be effective. So reather than trying to training the dog to not do certain things that a dog is inherently going to do You will be far bor successful if you change your own behabvior so that though behaviors are no linger rewarded. sUCH AS A BASSET THAT IS NOT GIVEN THE OPPURUNITY. to steel food off the counter because food is never left on the counter will not become a counter cuiser .

on punishment

Quote:

But, having said that, and even accepting the likelihood that it is true, animals do come equipped with a certain level of built-in resistance to the influence of aversive stimuli. A pup that is punished for nipping at a momma's nipple too hard does not abandon the nipple. The pup might be a bit tentative while nursing for a bit, but gets over it, and there is usually less nipping at the teat that feeds it. I watched a coyote pup fall into a cold spring and come out whining and shivering. However, the pup was soon back trying to catch the minnows that attracted it there in the first place.
Over a wild animal's life, it meets lots of aversives in the process of trying to earn a living and find a mate, and do all of the other things that that wild animal normally do. Trainers did not invent aversives. It just so happens that when we, or another organism, applies an aversive, we call it punishment.

Bassets are lacking the bidable gene found in many so called easy to train breeds, It meand they do not have a inherent need or willing ness to please you, The basic motivation is about themselves, The make calculation al the time in what they deam to be in there best interest. The will caluculate the risk of getting couaght and the punishment that follows vs being successfull. Hence the reason most punishment fails in the face of stealing food. see
Hard to Train
A look at "difficult-to-train" breeds and the reality of what shapes these canine minds.

I alway have to laugh at so called trainers that insisted a dog should be motivated to please you as the basic reason it does anything. It is such trainers that give basset the repuatation as hard to traind because they are dommed to failure from the start because the fail to understand the difference in motivation between breeds.

Mikey T · 01-01-2013, 02:17 PM

the bigest are of problem I see with people in training a dog that they can live with is the focus on the negative.

that I don't want the dog to jump up.

don't want the dog to beg

don't want the dog to get on thefurniture. etc

It is very diffucult to train a dog not to do something. The only way to do is is the use of punishment and with a basset that is very ineffetive. One is much better of focussing on what the behavior of the dog they do want.

1.e want the dog to great people with all four feet on the floor,

ie. want the dog to go to his spot and stay their while we are eatling at the table.

ie I want the dog to sleep on it own dog bed,

Now you have specific behavior that you can reward and have occur more frequently. IF the dog reats people with four feet onm the floor it is not jumping up etc.

Stopping Negative Behavior Positively

Quote:

The first step in changing undesired behavior is to identify the behaviors that you want to change. Every time you interact with your dog, ask yourself, "Is my dog doing something I want him to do?"
The second step is to define what you want your dog to do. If your dog is doing something you don't like, define what you want him to do instead. It's not enough to say "I want him to stop doing what he's doing." He could stop doing what he's doing and choose to do something worse - and then you'd have to stop that as well. It's faster to define what you want him to do from the beginning. For example:

I want my dog to hold a sit-stay while I prepare his food. (Not "I want my dog to stop jumping on me when I prepare his food.")
I want my dog to sit at the top or bottom of the stairs when a person is walking up or down.
I want my dog to lie quietly on a mat while the family eats dinner.
I want my dog to lie quietly on a mat when I have visitors.

The third step is to manage the situation so your dog can't do the behavior that he was doing instead of the preferred behavior. The dog was doing the undesired behavior because it worked, because it was somehow reinforcing.
For example, a dog jumps on someone as a greeting, even if the person yells and pushes him away. Why? Because the dog wants attention. If he doesn't jump, he was likely ignored. So he jumps, even if he is yelled at for it. Until you can teach your dog that jumping isn't reinforcing but sitting politely is, manage the situation by putting him in another room when the doorbell rings.
The final step is to train a preferred behavior. If you make the new behavior reinforcing and simultaneously make the old behavior unrewarding, the dog will quickly choose to do the new behavior.

Mikey T · 01-01-2013, 02:24 PM

The difference between a dog that is hard to live with and one that is difficult is simply self control. A dog with no self control is diffcult to live with Self control can be taught,

guidelines for teaching self control

lowerering Arousal, How to train Impulse Control

Any dog can live calmly in a house, even yours

VIDEO LINK to my favorite self control game

It's yer choice

HarveyB · 01-01-2013, 02:25 PM

Thank you for your answers!
And for Mikey T, yes maybe it was not well put that he knows. I guess I just expect that he would know since we tell him no and take the thing he snatched away so there is a negative end for him. How should I tell him that something is unwanted behavior? With the bin diving what we did was put the bins to the bathroom (we don't have a kitchen door) so he can't get to them. But if he ever comes in the bathroom he goes straight for the bins so I feel I'm not teaching him anything but just making him wait for the opportune moment if you know what I mean. Same with the shoes.. This is the part where I don't know how to proceed.

I know these are stubborn little dogs and like I said I don't feel I have any real issues with Harvey but I think that's more because of his good nature than my excellent training skills. That's why I'm looking for advice so we can take the last few steps so I don't have to shower with the bin the rest of my life

HarveyB · 01-01-2013, 02:36 PM

Oh I just saw that you already kind of answered my questions! I had actually never thought about training that way! So thank you that was very good advice

he actually does wait for his food sitting down at the kitchen door cause that's how we taught him from day one so I'm sure if I can figure out how to apply that method to other areas we will be bit closer to the goal.

If somebody still has tips on how to deal with Harvey when the damage is already done i.e. when he already stole a shoe or the biting incident I mentioned earlier I would be really grateful!

And thank you for the compliment 3kbasset!

he is our little Prince Charming!

Mikey T · 01-01-2013, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Harvey when the damage is already done i.e. when he already stole a shoe or the biting incident I mentioned earlier I would be really grateful!

what works for one does not necessarily work for other but given that you seemed to have a problem with "time out" this approach you may find more suitable. Rather than think of it as punishment think of it as a reward for the behavior, Ie bite ankles is reward with quality crate time. Because it is not a reward the dog is looking for the behavior will deminish over time here are a couple of articles that will explain it better

Insights Into Puppy Mouthing

Quote:

Something else this makes me think of. I must say I have a different take on the notion of negative punishments. To begin with I don't call them that and think the semantics of them is a problem because of the attitude it creates. I do not want to take anything away from the dog as a punishment so that they will decrease the chance of the behavior happening. I Reward the dog. Just not with the Reward they would prefer
If for example the dog is jumping and nipping for attention I reward the Behavior. BUT I reward it with something like me going away. "Yippie, you win! I bet I know what you would like! Your Reward is my disappearance." I know that it is semantics on one level but on another level it is really a completely different methodology.
I don't do "penalty yards" (TM pending, Lana Horton). "You pull on the leash... Yippie! We get to walk backwards or stop." If the dog thinks I am an idiot... Great!
"Bob, you fool. I am not trying to get you to walk backwards. Hmmmm... what do I need to do to get this idiot to stop going the wrong direction???"
If my attitude remains that I am having a great time and even better if I am acting like I think that the Undesired Reward is what the dog wants I am not setting up a conflict. But I am motivating the dog to reexamine its choices. I am encouraging the dog to try and educate me as to the best thing to do. And when the dog figures out that biting and nipping me is the stupidest way to get me to play they will look for a better way. And when they think that the reward I offer is not worth the effort it weakens the probability of that behavior continuing to be offered.
If a good friend wants to get you to go golfing every weekend and you hate golf you could tell them how boring it is and keep debating the point forever.
Or you could enthusiastically head to the course wearing the most outrageous outfit you can put together at Goodwill. Hit the ball in the opposite direction because it is so much fun watching everyone's expression (besides you were never much of a conformist) Talk constantly. Hug them and scream with joy at every stroke they make and express your amazement at their skills. Then tell them what a wonderful time you have golfing with them and can't wait to do it again. I bet your friend won't be available for another round for months.

You won the Prize!

Quote:

"You won the prize" originated, I believe, with Susan Garrett. The author of this post does a fabulous job explaining it, however.

Quote:

...
Try the "you won a prize" method. It's basically a time-out, but given so cheerfully that the dog doesn't seem to realize it's in trouble. I used this quite successfully with my greyhound girl Allegra, who was seriously trying to break through an 8-foot-wide picture window several times a day to get to passing squirrels, dogs, kids on skates, cats, crows, mailmen, trash collectors, etc. I got this idea from someone whose dog would not stay off the kitchen table. It requires that you become a world-class actor--the whole point is to never show that you are angry, just give the dog a very short time out **every** time the forbidden transgression occurs.
When your dog barks, just say "You won a prize" in the most disgustingly chirpy voice you can muster, then go take her collar and cheerfully and gently put her into a crate or a room that's located in a remote area of the house, where she will spend the next 2 to 5 minutes totally alone. Set a timer so you don't forget her. When it goes off, let her out again immediately, and wait for the next incident. You MUST be totally consistent or this won't work.

that said for any training to work effectively a reward or punishment is best delivered while or within a second of the behavior you want to reward or punish any more than a couple of seconds and it it is not likely the dog will associate the behavior with the correction/reward

Mikey T · 01-01-2013, 03:14 PM

the gold standard for dealing with chewing inappropriate opjectes is to first use a disruptive stimulus to stop the unwanted behavior.

The most common being a loud noisem ie shouting No! clapping you hands etc.

When the dog stops for a minute exhange the inappropriate object for an appropriate one , followed by rewarding for chewing the appropriate object.

the third step which is IMHO the most important is the most negelected than that is to rewars the dog preiodical through out the day when you see it using an appropriate object to chew on.,

CatherineM · 01-01-2013, 04:14 PM

I just find it easier to have everything above four feet. He can't reach it and I don't have to get mad. I'm not into a test of wills because I know I'll lose.

Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App

01-01-2013, 12:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
HarveyB Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Paris, France Posts: 144	Educating mr Stubborn Hi everyone! I'm in the need for some advice on how to handle and train Harvey. In general he is a very happy and good little guy and we don't really have any major issues with him. But I find it very hard sometimes to get my point across. He often repeatedly does things he "knows" he isn't allowed to do (picking the bins, stealing stuff to chew on etc.) and he doesn't seem to listen to me when I say no until I give him a more physical hint like nipping him with my fingers from the neck ( not hurting but just pulling a bit on the extra skin so he notices me) or nudge him. I'm also a bit lost on how I should (or shouldn't I) punish him if he does do something bad. He has never been a biting pup but the other day he was playing and running around the house and he sort of play bit my foot as he ran by. I stopped him and walked him ( holding his neck skin since he doesn't wear a collar in the house) to his place and put him there on a time out. I didn't handle him roughly or anything but afterwards I just got the feeling I didn't maybe do the best job with that situation. Sorry for the long rambling post but it's hard to explain since this is not really a problem with him but a general feeling of being a bit lost educating our little mr stubborn! Any tips would be welcome since Harvey is my first dog and I wouldn't wanna mess him up with bad training!! And happy new year to all from Harvey and family!

01-01-2013, 01:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
3kbasset Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 759	as others who will post after me will tell you, these are by nature stubborn stubborn stubborn creatures. you will benefit from a lot of hints from other members. persistence and patience and lots of praise has worked for us. I try to catch the behavior as it is being "considered" with an "uh uh". despite that, ours will often continue to make the attempt but there have been successes. Also bits of food as a distraction can help. No big on "punishment" per se, kind of implies they are doing things intentionally to be bad when they are likely just following their stubborn/hound/scent dog nature. We keep ours exercised and busy with things to keep her occupied/interested. you will get there (he's a very cute dog, by the way!) Last edited by 3kbasset; 01-01-2013 at 01:21 PM.

01-01-2013, 02:25 PM	#6 (permalink)
HarveyB Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Paris, France Posts: 144	Thank you for your answers! And for Mikey T, yes maybe it was not well put that he knows. I guess I just expect that he would know since we tell him no and take the thing he snatched away so there is a negative end for him. How should I tell him that something is unwanted behavior? With the bin diving what we did was put the bins to the bathroom (we don't have a kitchen door) so he can't get to them. But if he ever comes in the bathroom he goes straight for the bins so I feel I'm not teaching him anything but just making him wait for the opportune moment if you know what I mean. Same with the shoes.. This is the part where I don't know how to proceed. I know these are stubborn little dogs and like I said I don't feel I have any real issues with Harvey but I think that's more because of his good nature than my excellent training skills. That's why I'm looking for advice so we can take the last few steps so I don't have to shower with the bin the rest of my life

01-01-2013, 02:36 PM	#7 (permalink)
HarveyB Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Paris, France Posts: 144	Oh I just saw that you already kind of answered my questions! I had actually never thought about training that way! So thank you that was very good advice he actually does wait for his food sitting down at the kitchen door cause that's how we taught him from day one so I'm sure if I can figure out how to apply that method to other areas we will be bit closer to the goal. If somebody still has tips on how to deal with Harvey when the damage is already done i.e. when he already stole a shoe or the biting incident I mentioned earlier I would be really grateful! And thank you for the compliment 3kbasset! he is our little Prince Charming!

01-01-2013, 03:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mikey T Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: West Warrwick, RI Posts: 9,109	the gold standard for dealing with chewing inappropriate opjectes is to first use a disruptive stimulus to stop the unwanted behavior. The most common being a loud noisem ie shouting No! clapping you hands etc. When the dog stops for a minute exhange the inappropriate object for an appropriate one , followed by rewarding for chewing the appropriate object. the third step which is IMHO the most important is the most negelected than that is to rewars the dog preiodical through out the day when you see it using an appropriate object to chew on.,

01-01-2013, 04:14 PM	#10 (permalink)
CatherineM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 1,194	I just find it easier to have everything above four feet. He can't reach it and I don't have to get mad. I'm not into a test of wills because I know I'll lose. Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App

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