Educating mr Stubborn - Page 2

Jnfr · 01-01-2013, 06:20 PM

Kinda (sorta) on topic... I stumbled across something interesting this long weekend. At the moment I had a fly swatter in my hand (we have stink bugs) and Ellie started acting up and barking, which causes Jake to howl... while having the fly swatter in my hand I yelled "HEY" and pointed at them with it.... went totally silent! (never happened before!) Neither have ever even seen the fly swatter (to my knowledge... certainly never swatted!) At the moment it was just an extension of my arm because I was holding it and didn't even think about it. Well, it worked so well to quiet them, I have kept it near me. When they start up (the barking/howling thing... its pretty frequent) I hold it aloft like a wand and yell HEY ("HEY" alone never worked before) they shut up for a good few hours. All I can figure is it is something "different" that grabs their attention. Anyone with insight?

Mikey T · 01-02-2013, 07:29 AM

Quote:

something "different" that grabs their attention

yep! however those with rescue tend to say it was because they where wacked previously but that is rarely ever the case.

It is also not a punishment because it does not reduce the occurance of the behavior overall. From a behavioral standpoint not all punshment aare adversive and not adversives s punishment as we humans tend to equate.

Fred Astaire vd Jack Palance

Punishment how not to do it

Quote:

The word "punishment" should not automatically imply thumbscrews or eye gouging. In fact, punishment can occur even if no actual harm befalls the punished. A good working definition of the term would be "presenting something that reduces the chance that a behavior will happen." For example, sharks can punish swimmers just by showing their dorsal fins, and hot rooms punish those who wear heavy clothing. Once the shark is removed, or the temperature drops, swimming and wearing heavy clothes will return to their normal rate of occurrence. Punishment, therefore, decreases the likelihood that something will happen. It is not so much a description of how you imagine the behavior will change, but an assessment of how it actually changed. To say, "I punished the dog for soiling the carpet" is inaccurate if the behavior has not decreased in its rate of occurrence. This practice of inflicting discomfort after the fact is more accurately described as retaliation , retribution or just plain nastiness. i.e. you may have inflicted pain or terror but the animal did not connect it to the behavior! So, by definition, when used correctly, punishment always decreases response. The problem is that punishment is rarely the best solution to a problem, and is almost never practiced correctly.

FranksMum · 01-02-2013, 09:26 AM

What came off the page at me in this was 'stubborn'. When you get stubborn with a hound, ten to one you are not approaching the situation, whatever it might be, right. And the only answer to this is to change tactics. I have always found, over the years, that the best way with a Basset is to make what you want done, something he thinks he wanted all along. Applied psychology. Mixed in with a hefty dose of AVOID/REMOVE.

We have an often used saying round our place and that is 'Don't even think about it'. With a glare and a finger (or yes, the fly swat

) point. With my boys especially, they'd usually dissolve!!

Jnfr · 01-02-2013, 09:31 PM

Frankly, I was just stunned by the change in behavior by simply having the fly swatter in hand. I would NEVER use it to punish them by swatting. All I can think of is it gets their attention like a tin can with stones for a cat (or dog I guess). Since this "discovery" I have used it sparingly. One when they are going nuts with barking and play (when it is no longer fun for Jake but Ellie hasn't recognized he is Done!) and Ellie tries to climb over the chair arm and walk ON my laptop (can't be good for the computer). I just show her the swatter and tell her "down" and she will take the conventional way around.

Both are generally well behaved. Mostly, it is Ellie wanting to over play. My 13 yo Jake has his limits, and her walking on the laptop/coffee table.

Emma's mum · 01-02-2013, 09:35 PM

I am with Catherine too! Shoes, wires, kids toys (can't wait to keep away the Xmas tree now) nothing Emma can really reach but I will periodically spray some bitter chew on the furniture and also constantly work on NO!! She gets 'no' really well but she will go back to the furniture or anything she can lay on the next time. Sigh!!

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Jnfr · 01-02-2013, 09:37 PM

"NO" barely exists in mines vocabulary! Treat, Eat, Outside, Ride, Walk, Cookie, Bed... all in the vocabulary.... No, not so much! Kinda' hit or miss!

Emma's mum · 01-02-2013, 09:41 PM

Oh I tried a spray bottle before and the first time, Emma got a shock but subsequently, she actually enjoyed getting sprayed on!! Cos she is obsessed with water!! Maybe I need to do a half/half with vinegar. Now we are working on her nipping at everything or anyone. (Its not painful and it seems to me its something she needs to be taught. It brought back vivid memories of my then 1.5 year old daughter who literally put everything in her mouth and we had stickers, sand and all the weird stuff in her poop) 3 months old pup...we have a long way to train her.

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Emma's mum · 01-02-2013, 09:42 PM

You are funny Jnfr!

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Mikey T · 01-03-2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:

She gets 'no' really well but she will go back to the furniture or anything she can lay on the next time. Sigh!!

because for the vast majority of dogs is is simply a disruptive stimuli mot a comand, a cue or a paunishment. The simply stop what they are doing for a moment, with little or no other consequences.

HarveyB · 01-04-2013, 01:12 PM

Thank you everybody for the advice!! We've especially been applying the method of making him do the wanted behavior instead of just saying no and so far it's been working good. Of course no change happens over night but a little example of the improvement is that now when we start to put on shoes or socks he doesn't try to snatch them and poke you with his nose but we tell him to sit and wait and are able to tie our laces in peace now

I'm sure we still have a long way to go and if people have more tips and advice please share! But a little step has been taken!

Just wanted to share another good news kind of in the same topic. Harvey used to wear a harness but started to become impossible with pulling (especially if he got the scent of something or was otherwise excited). After much struggle we decided it was time to get him a collar that would help with this. I was a bit weary with the chains since I could just see his loose skin getting caught between but found a lovely leather collar with the same principle! And just got back from a long walk with Harvey that before would have gotten me frustrated and upset but now we both had a great time!

took a little pic of Harvey with his new collar!

Educating mr Stubborn-imageuploadedbypg-free1357323149.388303.jpg

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01-01-2013, 06:20 PM	#11 (permalink)
Jnfr Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 1,786	Kinda (sorta) on topic... I stumbled across something interesting this long weekend. At the moment I had a fly swatter in my hand (we have stink bugs) and Ellie started acting up and barking, which causes Jake to howl... while having the fly swatter in my hand I yelled "HEY" and pointed at them with it.... went totally silent! (never happened before!) Neither have ever even seen the fly swatter (to my knowledge... certainly never swatted!) At the moment it was just an extension of my arm because I was holding it and didn't even think about it. Well, it worked so well to quiet them, I have kept it near me. When they start up (the barking/howling thing... its pretty frequent) I hold it aloft like a wand and yell HEY ("HEY" alone never worked before) they shut up for a good few hours. All I can figure is it is something "different" that grabs their attention. Anyone with insight? __________________ Jnfr Sophie (ATB (1996-2010) Abby (ATB 2010 - 2012) Jake (2001 - ) Ellie (2012 - )

01-02-2013, 09:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
Jnfr Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 1,786	Frankly, I was just stunned by the change in behavior by simply having the fly swatter in hand. I would NEVER use it to punish them by swatting. All I can think of is it gets their attention like a tin can with stones for a cat (or dog I guess). Since this "discovery" I have used it sparingly. One when they are going nuts with barking and play (when it is no longer fun for Jake but Ellie hasn't recognized he is Done!) and Ellie tries to climb over the chair arm and walk ON my laptop (can't be good for the computer). I just show her the swatter and tell her "down" and she will take the conventional way around. Both are generally well behaved. Mostly, it is Ellie wanting to over play. My 13 yo Jake has his limits, and her walking on the laptop/coffee table. __________________ Jnfr Sophie (ATB (1996-2010) Abby (ATB 2010 - 2012) Jake (2001 - ) Ellie (2012 - )

01-02-2013, 09:37 PM	#16 (permalink)
Jnfr Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 1,786	"NO" barely exists in mines vocabulary! Treat, Eat, Outside, Ride, Walk, Cookie, Bed... all in the vocabulary.... No, not so much! Kinda' hit or miss! __________________ Jnfr Sophie (ATB (1996-2010) Abby (ATB 2010 - 2012) Jake (2001 - ) Ellie (2012 - )

01-04-2013, 01:12 PM	#20 (permalink)
HarveyB Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Paris, France Posts: 145	Thank you everybody for the advice!! We've especially been applying the method of making him do the wanted behavior instead of just saying no and so far it's been working good. Of course no change happens over night but a little example of the improvement is that now when we start to put on shoes or socks he doesn't try to snatch them and poke you with his nose but we tell him to sit and wait and are able to tie our laces in peace now I'm sure we still have a long way to go and if people have more tips and advice please share! But a little step has been taken! Just wanted to share another good news kind of in the same topic. Harvey used to wear a harness but started to become impossible with pulling (especially if he got the scent of something or was otherwise excited). After much struggle we decided it was time to get him a collar that would help with this. I was a bit weary with the chains since I could just see his loose skin getting caught between but found a lovely leather collar with the same principle! And just got back from a long walk with Harvey that before would have gotten me frustrated and upset but now we both had a great time! took a little pic of Harvey with his new collar! Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App

01-02-2013, 09:26 AM	#13 (permalink)
FranksMum Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: S.West UK Posts: 429	What came off the page at me in this was 'stubborn'. When you get stubborn with a hound, ten to one you are not approaching the situation, whatever it might be, right. And the only answer to this is to change tactics. I have always found, over the years, that the best way with a Basset is to make what you want done, something he thinks he wanted all along. Applied psychology. Mixed in with a hefty dose of AVOID/REMOVE. We have an often used saying round our place and that is 'Don't even think about it'. With a glare and a finger (or yes, the fly swat ) point. With my boys especially, they'd usually dissolve!!

01-02-2013, 09:35 PM	#15 (permalink)
Emma's mum Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 121	I am with Catherine too! Shoes, wires, kids toys (can't wait to keep away the Xmas tree now) nothing Emma can really reach but I will periodically spray some bitter chew on the furniture and also constantly work on NO!! She gets 'no' really well but she will go back to the furniture or anything she can lay on the next time. Sigh!! Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App

01-02-2013, 09:41 PM	#17 (permalink)
Emma's mum Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 121	Oh I tried a spray bottle before and the first time, Emma got a shock but subsequently, she actually enjoyed getting sprayed on!! Cos she is obsessed with water!! Maybe I need to do a half/half with vinegar. Now we are working on her nipping at everything or anyone. (Its not painful and it seems to me its something she needs to be taught. It brought back vivid memories of my then 1.5 year old daughter who literally put everything in her mouth and we had stickers, sand and all the weird stuff in her poop) 3 months old pup...we have a long way to train her. Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App

01-02-2013, 09:42 PM	#18 (permalink)
Emma's mum Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 121	You are funny Jnfr! Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App

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