How do you tell your basset no? - Page 2 - Basset Hounds: Basset Hound Dog Forums
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:27 AM   #11 (permalink)
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more about tone than the word you use imo
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:30 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Clearly what I'm doing isn't sufficiently motivating her.
If you thing anything verbal is going to be more motivating than a potential food find you are sadly mistake. Then only way to keep her off the counter is

1. Remove access ie not let her in the kitchen/sofa put a barrier between the sofa and counter, move the sofa.

or 2. make sure there is never anything left on the counter in th matter of food including crumbs so the behavior is never rewarded.



it is unlikely you have trained off as a command. What newbies to training do not understand is that dog do not understand english. You must have a reliable behavior before you can even begin to put a verbal cue/command to it.

start by leading her of the counter and rewarding her when all four feet are on the ground.

see the following video series for training off

When to add the Cue
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it depends somewhat on the animal, the environment, and the behavior. By and large, when you get the behavior to the level of 80 percent of the time it, the behavior, is what you want (the final behavior), you should begin the cue training. This is one of the infamous "rules of thumb," where there is great latitude in when and how to apply it.
Here are some of the factors to consider: If the behavior is simple and easy for the animal, especially if it is something the animal naturally does on its own, such as a dog's SIT, I would cue it earlier rather than later. If the behavior is a precision behavior, that might be somewhat difficult to do, I would do it a bit later, when the final behavior is a bit stronger.
When we begin to cue is a function of strength of behavior and the rate of extinction. We spend time building strength of behavior (usually the number of correct and reinforced repetitions) using OC's principle of reinforcement. When we begin cue training, we will employ the principle of extinction to reduce both the uncued responses and those responses not meeting criteria (not what we want). The stronger we build the responses, especially responses not making criteria, the more extinction trials, and the longer it takes.
The reason I emphasize the trainer error of strengthening poor responses is that the animal learns best when there is the greatest clarity during training. If the animal fails for more than one reason, then the more difficult it will be for the animal to discern why it failed; the more reasons for failure, the muddier the picture, and the longer it will take for the animal to learn what you want.

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Old 12-13-2012, 11:37 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I think it would be easier to teach the kids not to leave food on the counter than to teach a Basset to leave it alone.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:42 AM   #14 (permalink)
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that it's counterproductive to yell or clap with a pup
it depends on the pup and how it reacts. With a noise sensitive dog it is likely counter productive, whith the typical dog it is not. But people have a misconception of what no and clap are to the typical dog. It is not punishment,. By definition in behaviorist terminology punishment must reduce the likelyhood the behavior recurs. this is not the case with either of these two. For the vast majority of dogs No! or any other loud noise is a "disruptive Stimulus" it gets your dogs attention so it give you that moment to train a more appropriate behavior. So in house training yell or making a loud noise when the dog start to go in the house works well if it stops the dog then you can take it out let it finish and reward it for doing so outside.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:08 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 3kbasset View Post
Pretty successful with this...they are hard to out stubborn though! sometimes I will lift her off the counter edge 3 or 4 times in a row before she stops.
Ah, see, but I have to lift Miss Ginger off maybe 20 times.
And the thing about them looking so sad when I tell her no - not happening here. She just averts her eyes and continues on with what she wants.
I can't move the sofa away from the counter because it's a sectional in the corner and it's not a large room. I could maybe pull it out a few inches, but then I'm afraid she'd just get wedged in the gap.

I'm interested in what you're saying about working out a compromise rather than just getting stubborn with them. Could you tell me how you do that? She's just obsessed with the counter right now! She's really very obedient except when she's trying to steal food - even when there isn't food there, but she thinks there might be...
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Mikey - thank you for your comments. I'll watch those videos. I was unsure if I should reward her for getting off the counter. I didn't know if it would then encourage her to get up on the counter and get back down for a treat.
We're working on "come" and "sit" right now.
There's not really a way for me to block off access to the counter. There's just no way to reconfigure the furniture unless I get new furniture (someday!) But we are working to train the kids not to eat there.

Thank you for the advice!
This dog doesn't seem to be at all noise sensitive. Or really sensitive at all. She's sweet, but tough and persistent!
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:30 PM   #17 (permalink)
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if I should reward her for getting off the counter. I didn't know if it would then encourage her to get up on the counter and get back down for a treat.

that can happen so It one reason you want to train off in different setting. and two once she knows the command one does not need to always reward the behavior or always reward the behavior with a food reward.

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There's not really a way for me to block off access to the counter
actual there is and not destroy the "open concept" by a piece of lexan ( plexiglass) that is the width of the counter about 6 ft tall or higher slip between sofa and counter the sofa will hold it in place and the plexiglass stops the dogs access.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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If a basset never realizes it can do something ie take food ,counter surf, get out of the fenced yard, most likely he will never attempt to do it but if he can do it just once you will almost(I said almost) never break him of it,thus removel 20 times from the counter.When you have a basset you have to be more stubborn then they are to make it work,if you give in once you are back to square one. Everyone in the house should be reprmanding the same way with the same words.Using "NO" one time and "Stop That" the next time will only confuse the dog and he will not listen to either of them.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Everyone in the house should be reprmanding the same way with the same words.Using "NO" one time and "Stop That"
I dont believe and most experts do not believe a verbal no is a reprimand as we would use with children, For a dog it more Oh what was that and they look around giving you the oppurtunity to train a more apporpriate behavior but they do not and never will work like "real punishment" and reduce the frequency a behavior occurs. that will only occur through extiniction in which the previously rewarded behavior ie finding food no longer occurs, over enough times and trials without being rewarded the dog will give up, but because it has been rewarded for the behavior it is always lurking So it may try it occasionally still and if it is reward you will have the full blown behavior once again as bubdad notes,

Glossary of Clicker Training Terms .
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Extinction The weakening of behavior through non-reinforcement. "Ignoring" the behavior. In extinction, nothing is added or removed from the environment. For example, a treat lies on the other side of a fence. A dog reaches his paw under, but cannot reach the treat. Because reaching for the treat doesn't work - because it isn't reinforced through success - the dog will eventually quit reaching for the treat.

Extinction burst A characteristic of extinction. If a previously-reinforced behavior is not reinforced, the animal will increase the intensity or frequency of the behavior in attempt to earn the reinforcement again. After these bursts, the offering of the behavior will diminish.



also of note is the extinction burst where the previously rewarded behavior when no longer reward actual gets more intense.

What is An Extinction Burst?
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If someone's gained some reward every time for a particular behavior, the
behavior will persist. If suddnely the reward stops coming, it's likely
that the person or animal will not immediately give up the behavior.
Instead, they'll try it again and again, harder, faster, more emphatically.
It's a burst of activity. If the reward still doesn't come, eventually
the behavior will extinguish, or become extinct. So, the burst of behavior
before extinction of the behavior is called an "extinction burst".

My favorite example is the elevator button. Let's say you ride the same
elevator every day. You get in, you push the button for your floor, and
you're rewarded by the doors closing and the elevator taking you to your
destination. One day you get in and push the button, and nothing happens.
Do you immediately say, "Oh, this must not work anymore, I'll just take the
stairs to the 11th floor"? Or do you push the button again? And again?
And harder? And faster? And in special sequences? That's the extinction
burst.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Would you say, then, that this is not a breed that you can train out of particular behavoirs, like jumping on the counter, just because you don't want the dog on the counter? It sounds like perhaps if the dog wants a reward (food) it will do what it needs to to get the food, regardless of training?
I just want to be clear so I use the right methods.
In other breeds (I've worked with German Shepherds and pit bulls before) you can set a treat on the dog's nose and it won't grab it till you release it, because it wants to please. It seems like perhaps that sort of training won't work here, and I just need to remove the temptation by separating the dog from the counter or table or by not leaving food up there, not letting her in the room during dinner - that sort of thing.
Am I understanding correctly?
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