cpizzul

So we've had our Basset Mix for two weeks and she is doing well. But now it is time to get some training done. I have been religiously teaching her 'wait' for food/treats/going thru doors. But this dog knows NO basic commands (i.e., sit, down).

I have never trained a 60 lb adult dog from scratch. How do I physically put her in a 'down' as I say the command? I'd hate to do a leash correction if she doesn't know what to do...

PS - I trained 3 Newfies and they all passed good citizens tests.

__________________
Cynthia

Soundtrack

Instead of wrestling with the dog, you can lure, shape or capture the behavior and reinforce that way.

It's easiest to do if the dog knows how to use a marker, such as a clicker.

You can use a treat to lure the dog towards the ground. If the dog goes all the way down, as soon as he hits the ground you can click/treat to mark and reinforce the behavior. Once the dog has done this enough times to know that the hand moving towards the ground means "hit the dirt", you can start adding the "down" cue.

If he doesn't go all the way down, you can start shaping it by clicking the movement of the head towards the ground. Once he understands that ask for a little lower, then a little lower until it's all the way down. Then hold out for moving a paw forward (by using the lure to manipulate which direction his head goes in, you can shift his weight to make a paw movement more likely), then a second paw. Break the exercise down into as many small steps as needed to move him closer and closer to lying down. Once he goes down promptly with the lure, you can add the cue.

For capturing, you just click the behavior when he does it on his own. Every dog lies down sometime. To make it easier, you can shut yourselves in the bathroom, have a seat (you may need a book), and just wait for him to lie down. As soon as he does, click/treat. Then wait for him to do it again.

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cpizzul

Ok - I will work on that...Perfect plan.

Until I get a good down, I need to start working on stays. It will be important whether or not she downs. I don't care if she stays in a stand/sit/down as long as she stays. Any advice on that? Should I wait a while before focusing on it? Or should I just use my usual correction method I used with my Newfies? I'm new to the speed/nose of this breed LOL

__________________
Cynthia

Mikey T

true but for behaviors the dog does natural of which down is one I find it easier simply to "capture" the behavior. That is simply rewarding the behavior when it occurs natural any behavior rewarded will occur more frequently and you will learn when this bnehavior is likely to naturally occur and take advantage. When you can predict when the behavior is going to occur then you can attach a cue to the behavior.


Keep in min you never have to teach the dog to sit, down or stand they already know you to do this you are simply training the dog to respond to a cue tthat could be physical or verbal and perform the behavior it is a fundamentally different priocess than teaching a new behavior

see How You Get Behavior Really Does Matter

How to Use Your Clicker to Capture Behaviors
personally I never use a clicker to capture a behavior. and only using it shape a behavior or other precision work you don't need the percission of a clicker to capture a behavior. The more you clicker train the more you learn the power of the clicker and the less you actual use it.



Adding the Cue



when to add the Cue

Quote:

By and large, when you get the behavior to the level of 80 percent of the time it, the behavior, is what you want (the final behavior), you should begin the cue training. This is one of the infamous "rules of thumb," where there is great latitude in when and how to apply it. Here are some of the factors to consider: If the behavior is simple and easy for the animal, especially if it is something the animal naturally does on its own, such as a dog's SIT, I would cue it earlier rather than later. If the behavior is a precision behavior, that might be somewhat difficult to do, I would do it a bit later, when the final behavior is a bit stronger.

cpizzul

Mikey - I've printed that article and I'll read it today - I have never used a clicker to train but Newfies are probably on the 'easiest to train list'...

I use 'good girl' and treat to let my pups know when they've done what I want. I use a low growl 'hey' and a leash correction when they get it wrong. This has always worked for me...But it doesn't take that many corrections with a Newfie.

__________________
Cynthia

Mikey T

no need for a correction a lack of reward should be suffcient. You just can't exceed the the time the dog can give you at first so their is a high rate of reward. never want to be below 50% of trials dog being rewarded and when you get upt to 80% consitently you need to make the task harder by increasing duration On way to do this with a clicker works like this If you know the dog can stay for say 4 second. You click and reward at 3 second making sure the dog stays in position through out anouther 2-3 second another reeward and so on soon you have a stay of actual 10 -15 seconds in length, this is a great way to add duration.

For training a stay at an open door i use the premack principal that is a behavior that is more likely to occur rewarding a behavior less likely. Dok in a sit or down stay actual I do not ask for the behavior but won't move toward the door till it occurs. So my moving towrd the door becomes the reward for the dogs behavior. I then open the door the doog must remain in place until released. if the dog moves the door closes so the reward for waiting at the door is being able to go out the door. Not all reward with bassets need to be food based depends on the dog play and other things can be as motivating or more motivating than food in the right circumstances.


Adding Duration

keep in mind you also need to work on other things as well adding distrations to the behavior so in the end it is bullet proof.

DISTRACTIONS FOR YOUR RECALL


for stays and self control excerises you can out do
Crate Games for Self-Control & Motivation DVD





Basset gereneral do not work well with compulsion type training in that they tend to shut down and do nothing when you try and force them. Aslo praise for the average basset is not much of a reward each dog is different it is not a bad idea to start keeping track on how your dog reacts to various rewards so you can use them appropriate. you don't always wnat to use the highest value reward for everything. For behavior the dog knows well being under low distration a lower value reward is appropriate.

list of reinforcers certainly not complete but a good starting point



If you are new to using food as a reward i would suggest the following

Food rewards in dog training
for some dogs the smell of food can be a big distraction that makes training diffcult. the following is an self congtrol exercise I recomend to start with before using food as a reward in other types of training. It is also a very good self control exercise and will help with behavior that require self control like stay.



If you want to learn more about using a clicker to shape a behavior and do not have a local class I would suggest
Shaping Success

Should You Use No Reward Markers? Examining the Debate

"NRMs" No Reward Markers

Non Reward Markers: Reducing the Use
[quote]

cpizzul

OK - I'm going to study what you've shown me thanks Mikey...
Actually - I already have a solid 'Wait' by the door with a very similar method (and also for her food).

I have one important issue before I do this: Cannoli is on that Urinary SO diet to prevent the stones. I am concerned about using treats that will be bad for her health. Any suggestions on this?

Also - What is the reason I cannot use 'good girl' said once instead of a clicker? Doesn't she just need to associate something consistently with the reward?

__________________
Cynthia

Soundtrack

"Good Girl" is very long and imprecise. A dog can do a lot of things during the time it takes you to say it, so it's not clear what you are rewarding her for. A clicker is very distinctive and short. You don't need a clicker per se, you need something quick and distinct. If you wish to use a verbal marker, use something short like "yes" and mark the exact moment she does the thing you want. I use both a clicker and a verbal marker, becaue sometimes the clicker is inconvenient to use.

FWIW, a frequent Basset reaction to a hard leash correction is to slow down or even freeze. Hence their reputation for being "stubborn". In the case of a hound you truly do catch more flies with honey.

__________________
Rosie-Ch Soundtrack Cracklin' Rose CGN AGN RA Am RN TT
Melody-Ch Soundtrack Unchained Melody TT
Sailor-Ch Soundtrack Expedition Sailor RN TT
Chili-Ch Soundtrack Spice Up Your Life
Curry-Ch Soundtrack Canadian Brass
Pepper-Ch Pennieslogon Living La Vida Loca CGN
Vina-Ch Soundtrack Grand Illusion
Leila-Ch Soundtrack Almost Paradise
Deela-Ch Soundtrack Wink Of An Eye
Hermione - Soundtrack Spellbound
Eowyn - Soundtrack Rain Dance

cpizzul

That makes sense...Now - Do you see any problem with me using the clicker/yes ONLY for the new pup? Should I incorporate it into my Newfie's vocabulary as well? Can I just use two different methods?

Yeah - I am noticing that she's not really responding great to the corrections. She really responds well to praise though.

__________________
Cynthia

Mikey T

nothing wrong with using dog food as a treat/reward. You can reduce the amoun you put in the bowll reserving it for training hence no worry of weight gain either.

each individual dog is different. and what is important to one not so much to another you need to work through what is most motivating for your dog. like I said in the post above the the list of reinforcers is a good place to start to expand you idea of rewards.

As don't miss interpret the suggst by myself or Miriam, aka soundtract. it is possible to tain a basset using compulsion we have b oth done it An depending on the situation i still will but you won't find me recoomending it because of the possible faqllout if not done well that does not exist with positive reinforcement (POSITIVE = SOMETHING ADDED) (NEGATIVE= something removed) The ear pinched forced retrieve is not punishment but negative reinforcement,


I also think their is THE POSSIBILity of harm to relationship between owner and dog is greater when using compulsion techniques. There is no one way to train a dog it is alabout what work best not just for the dog but you as well.