The puppies are driving me me crazy!

mabrooks · 02-03-2012, 09:48 PM

Ugh, so frustrated tonight. The boys, almost 13 weeks now, same sex, same litter puppies are playfighting until they break into real fights. Fights where we have to separate them. Tonight alone we have had to break them up 4 times and I have a scratch on my face and a puncture on my arm. When they are just being lazy they are wonderful and loving and sweet, but that's only a quarter of the time when they are just in the mood to lounge. The other times when they aren't sleeping, they are at each others throats. It's a constant battle and I don't know what to do. I've never been around puppies this crazy before. Is it time to get them neutered? Should we get both of them neutered or just one of them? What age should we do this? Will that calm them down? Please, please, please, any advice is greatly appreciated. We give them plenty of time, attention and love and exercise and it's obviously not enough. We have bonded with them individually and take time alone with each puppy, but as soon as they come back together they go at it. I'm just so frustrated.

MissChloe · 02-03-2012, 10:18 PM

My friend has some beagle puppies that do the same thing at times. The other day she went in and they were at it and one of them gashed the others ear. Blood everywhere.....she said they were trying to establish who is "in charge"....after this fight they were fine.

I know my Lab makes Chloe yelp at times when she is over agressive with him because he is trying to show her he was here first and he is the dominant one. She has a hard time with this and keeps after him. He eventually grabs her by the throat and holds her down....this is the only thing that works unfortunately.

Good luck with your 2 sweet little guys. Hopefully they will eventually work it out. For them it is probably normal but it is hard for us to see it.

Mikey T · 02-03-2012, 11:07 PM

at 13 week it is not sex hormone related nuetering is not going to have an effect.

Quote:

Will that calm them down?

no

there are two possiblities here and you need a professional evaluation that actual sees the puppies interacting.

1. the puppies are play fine and you ae overreact to the rough pay and by intervening you are messing up their communication and leaning

2. you have one or more mal adjusted puppies. and keeping them together is only make matters worse.

You can describe all day what's going on but unless one can actual see the puppies there is really know way of knowing

I suggest the following

1. have the breeder come over and observer the puppies or take the puppies over there.

2. Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist

3. Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists

so far you have docummented injuries to yourself but not any to either dog so I again ask are you sure they need to be seperated? also if they do what is happening is you are not intervening fast enough you need to do so when things start to pick up not after they have already begun. You need to work on teach each puppy self control that is by themselves play with the puppies when they start to get worked up withdraw until the calm then resume play. repeat often the more this occurs the faster a quicker they will be able to calm themselves. that said I lean toward it is you intervention that is the problem however without seeing the dogs that is purely speculation based on the knowledge in most cases that is the cause and exacerbation of problems.

Is Your Dog’s Rough Play Appropriate?

Quote:

Even though play fighting is very different from real fighting, people often feel the need to intervene. Sometimes it is obvious at the beginning of a bout that two dogs are playing, but once the dogs start growling or their arousal intensifies, observers may no longer be sure that the dogs are still playing. After all, humans instinctively avoid a dog who is snarling or baring his teeth, and it is natural to think that our dogs should do the same. When people interrupt really rowdy play, they assume that they are “playing it safe,” that is, doing no harm. But what if this assumption is mistaken?
Our research shows that for many dogs, play fighting is the primary method used to negotiate new relationships and develop lasting friendships. Although play is fun, it also offers serious opportunities to communicate with another dog. In this sense, play is a kind of language. Thus, when we regularly break up what we consider “inappropriate” play, are we doing our dogs a service, or confusing them by constantly butting into their private conversations? Most importantly, how can we tell the difference?

...Sometimes people interrupt these interactions because they fear that rough play will escalate into an allout dogfight. However, in hundreds of hours of observations of play fighting between two dogs with established relationships, we have never witnessed a single escalation to real fighting.

Jnfr · 02-03-2012, 11:11 PM

Good luck! Sounds like you have your hands full with these two boys.

I would like to think (after reading Mikey's post) that they are engaging in Play and not a more serious problem.

houndmomma · 02-03-2012, 11:37 PM

I’m with Mikey – I would find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist – and have them come to your house.

A nice glass of wine wouldn’t hurt when they hit the sheets for the night

Sounds like you have your work cut out – wishing you the best of luck with your little guys – just keep telling yourself that in another year you’ll miss when they were puppies – or maybe not.

I hope you keep us posted

Jen~

ruhnayers · 02-04-2012, 12:04 AM

Well, when in a litter with mom around they learn manners because the momma dog will correct them for being inappropriate. Now they are away from mom and it's like a little kid when mom leaves the room, they think they can get away with all this. I would definately agree that if they are truely fighting (which I believe they either are, or on the verge of it) that they should be seperated earlier... Maybe take a moment to truely just watch them play and look at their body language and try to find the moment when they switch from fun to fight. The change can usually be noticed in body language or the intensity of their play. As soon as you see something change, intervene. You can try relaxation techniques once you seperate them. I learned when I started training puppies when I was much younger that if they get too high strung to flop them on their backs in your lap and just massage/pet them slowly and talk in a slow relaxing voice until they are relaxed and calm... Not only is it relaxing for both the person and the puppy, but it teaches the puppy how to just chill. It's a handy thing to teach them and it makes a difference throughout their lives. I also agree with that it is not a hormone issue, so neutering them right now would not make any difference at all. It does not calm them down at this point. People have different opinions on when to neuter a dog... I have heard people say not to neuter a dog until they reach a year old. This is because of developmental reasons. I have looked into it and I found out that that is usually just for dogs that are going into high performance things,for bassets it would be hunting or agility and things like that. I have found that hormones can cause a lot of other issues in dogs... I like to neuter males around 6 months, none of my dogs do high performance anything on a regular basis so I'm not worries about any of that. It is definately a personal choice, and I would suggest you look into the arguments for both sides and decide on how you personally feel. I mean, I have my preference and other people have theirs, but it comes down to an owner's decision and what they believe is the right choice for their dogs. Animals aren't one size fits all, they are all different and what might work for one might not work for the other.
Now, Another thing I thought of when reading your post was are they getting enough exercise? I know they are too young to take out without their shots, but even if you put them on leashes and walk them around the house exactly as if they were on a walk it can not only teach them nice leash manners at a young age, but it can give them controlled energy release. On that note even training them to do sit/down/stay kind of commands can create focus and manners. All of this can help them out. A lot of times when they learn one thing it can reduce a problem in another area. It's not always the case, but sometimes it works.
It would definately be helpful to bring in a professional. Not only could they help with finding out what's going on with the dogs, but can show you how to help them. It is hard to figure things out without seeing everything first hand.

Mikey T · 02-04-2012, 12:23 AM

Quote:

I know they are too young to take out without their shots,

certainly not too young

AVSAB Position Statement On Puppy Socialization

Quote:

While puppies’ immune systems are still developing during these early months, the combination of maternal immunity, primary vaccination, and appropriate care makes the risk of infection relatively small compared to the chance of death from a behavior problem.

ruhnayers · 02-04-2012, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey T

certainly not too young

AVSAB Position Statement On Puppy Socialization

[/SIZE]

That's a matter of opinion. Some people prefer to wait until all shots are administered. I'll take some puppies out before they have their shots if they are really healthy and I think they are ready, but there are other puppies (especially working with rescue dogs that aren't totally healthy) that I'd wait until all puppy shots are given just as a precaution.
Also, some dog owners are not comfortible with doing it. Doesn't make them wrong, just makes them cautious.

Soundtrack · 02-04-2012, 06:27 AM

I agre with Mikey, unless one or both has a temperament issue it is highly unlikely at this age that they are truly fighting and by breaking them up their issues are going unresolved. They need to work this out between themselves.

Soundtrack · 02-04-2012, 06:34 AM

I agree with Mikey, unless one or both has a temperament issue it is highly unlikely at this age that they are truly fighting and by breaking them up their issues are going unresolved. They need to work this out between themselves.

You can start basic obedience training at home, and it's also a good time to look into puppy obedience classes. It's never too early to start training - the program I'm following with the puppies has them start learning sit, down and stand at five weeks, and come when called as soon as they're walking around.

02-03-2012, 09:48 PM	#1 (permalink)
mabrooks Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 44	The puppies are driving me me crazy! Ugh, so frustrated tonight. The boys, almost 13 weeks now, same sex, same litter puppies are playfighting until they break into real fights. Fights where we have to separate them. Tonight alone we have had to break them up 4 times and I have a scratch on my face and a puncture on my arm. When they are just being lazy they are wonderful and loving and sweet, but that's only a quarter of the time when they are just in the mood to lounge. The other times when they aren't sleeping, they are at each others throats. It's a constant battle and I don't know what to do. I've never been around puppies this crazy before. Is it time to get them neutered? Should we get both of them neutered or just one of them? What age should we do this? Will that calm them down? Please, please, please, any advice is greatly appreciated. We give them plenty of time, attention and love and exercise and it's obviously not enough. We have bonded with them individually and take time alone with each puppy, but as soon as they come back together they go at it. I'm just so frustrated.

02-03-2012, 11:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
houndmomma Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Chicago Posts: 503	I’m with Mikey – I would find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist – and have them come to your house. A nice glass of wine wouldn’t hurt when they hit the sheets for the night Sounds like you have your work cut out – wishing you the best of luck with your little guys – just keep telling yourself that in another year you’ll miss when they were puppies – or maybe not. I hope you keep us posted Jen~ __________________ Momma to Lucy age 12 ~ Basset Hound Momma to Rickie age 5 ~ Shi-Poo (don’t tell him though – he thinks he’s a hound dog) Momma to Mabel age -1 ~ Basset Hound Momma to Flash – RIP 2000 ~ 2011 – Gone in body but with me in spirit ~ You will live on forever in my heart baby ~ Je t'aime

02-04-2012, 12:04 AM	#6 (permalink)
ruhnayers Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 45	Well, when in a litter with mom around they learn manners because the momma dog will correct them for being inappropriate. Now they are away from mom and it's like a little kid when mom leaves the room, they think they can get away with all this. I would definately agree that if they are truely fighting (which I believe they either are, or on the verge of it) that they should be seperated earlier... Maybe take a moment to truely just watch them play and look at their body language and try to find the moment when they switch from fun to fight. The change can usually be noticed in body language or the intensity of their play. As soon as you see something change, intervene. You can try relaxation techniques once you seperate them. I learned when I started training puppies when I was much younger that if they get too high strung to flop them on their backs in your lap and just massage/pet them slowly and talk in a slow relaxing voice until they are relaxed and calm... Not only is it relaxing for both the person and the puppy, but it teaches the puppy how to just chill. It's a handy thing to teach them and it makes a difference throughout their lives. I also agree with that it is not a hormone issue, so neutering them right now would not make any difference at all. It does not calm them down at this point. People have different opinions on when to neuter a dog... I have heard people say not to neuter a dog until they reach a year old. This is because of developmental reasons. I have looked into it and I found out that that is usually just for dogs that are going into high performance things,for bassets it would be hunting or agility and things like that. I have found that hormones can cause a lot of other issues in dogs... I like to neuter males around 6 months, none of my dogs do high performance anything on a regular basis so I'm not worries about any of that. It is definately a personal choice, and I would suggest you look into the arguments for both sides and decide on how you personally feel. I mean, I have my preference and other people have theirs, but it comes down to an owner's decision and what they believe is the right choice for their dogs. Animals aren't one size fits all, they are all different and what might work for one might not work for the other. Now, Another thing I thought of when reading your post was are they getting enough exercise? I know they are too young to take out without their shots, but even if you put them on leashes and walk them around the house exactly as if they were on a walk it can not only teach them nice leash manners at a young age, but it can give them controlled energy release. On that note even training them to do sit/down/stay kind of commands can create focus and manners. All of this can help them out. A lot of times when they learn one thing it can reduce a problem in another area. It's not always the case, but sometimes it works. It would definately be helpful to bring in a professional. Not only could they help with finding out what's going on with the dogs, but can show you how to help them. It is hard to figure things out without seeing everything first hand. __________________ --------------------------------------------- proud momma of: Oliver (pure bred basset hound) 5 years old Annie (basset hound/rotti mix) 1 1/2 years old Archie (pure bred basset hound) 1 year old Rupert (nubian goat) 1 year old Wesley (nigerian dwarf/pygmy) 1 year old 2 bunnies named Kibbles and Bitts my 4 kitties, Osiris, Isis, Nut, and Ra WE RESCUE/FOSTER! helping save lives 1 at a time!

02-04-2012, 06:27 AM	#9 (permalink)
Soundtrack Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,582	I agre with Mikey, unless one or both has a temperament issue it is highly unlikely at this age that they are truly fighting and by breaking them up their issues are going unresolved. They need to work this out between themselves. __________________ Rosie-Ch Soundtrack Cracklin' Rose CGN AGN RA Am RN TT Melody-Ch Soundtrack Unchained Melody TT Sailor-Ch Soundtrack Expedition Sailor RN TT Chili-Ch Soundtrack Spice Up Your Life Curry-Ch Soundtrack Canadian Brass Pepper-Ch Pennieslogon Living La Vida Loca CGN Vina-Ch Soundtrack Grand Illusion Leila-Ch Soundtrack Almost Paradise Deela-Ch Soundtrack Wink Of An Eye Hermione - Soundtrack Spellbound Eowyn - Soundtrack Rain Dance

02-04-2012, 06:34 AM	#10 (permalink)
Soundtrack Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,582	I agree with Mikey, unless one or both has a temperament issue it is highly unlikely at this age that they are truly fighting and by breaking them up their issues are going unresolved. They need to work this out between themselves. You can start basic obedience training at home, and it's also a good time to look into puppy obedience classes. It's never too early to start training - the program I'm following with the puppies has them start learning sit, down and stand at five weeks, and come when called as soon as they're walking around. __________________ Rosie-Ch Soundtrack Cracklin' Rose CGN AGN RA Am RN TT Melody-Ch Soundtrack Unchained Melody TT Sailor-Ch Soundtrack Expedition Sailor RN TT Chili-Ch Soundtrack Spice Up Your Life Curry-Ch Soundtrack Canadian Brass Pepper-Ch Pennieslogon Living La Vida Loca CGN Vina-Ch Soundtrack Grand Illusion Leila-Ch Soundtrack Almost Paradise Deela-Ch Soundtrack Wink Of An Eye Hermione - Soundtrack Spellbound Eowyn - Soundtrack Rain Dance

02-03-2012, 10:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
MissChloe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 51	My friend has some beagle puppies that do the same thing at times. The other day she went in and they were at it and one of them gashed the others ear. Blood everywhere.....she said they were trying to establish who is "in charge"....after this fight they were fine. I know my Lab makes Chloe yelp at times when she is over agressive with him because he is trying to show her he was here first and he is the dominant one. She has a hard time with this and keeps after him. He eventually grabs her by the throat and holds her down....this is the only thing that works unfortunately. Good luck with your 2 sweet little guys. Hopefully they will eventually work it out. For them it is probably normal but it is hard for us to see it.

02-03-2012, 11:11 PM	#4 (permalink)
Jnfr Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 784	Good luck! Sounds like you have your hands full with these two boys. I would like to think (after reading Mikey's post) that they are engaging in Play and not a more serious problem.

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