Swimming-duck

So Maemae growled at our oldest kiddo (4 years) several times while she was sitting with me on the couch. It was usually because he bounced on the couch, towards the couch, or even walking across the room and passing the couch. She has never growled at anyone else. The way I handled it when she did this is I told me 4 year old to stop and back up and then led Maemae to the kitchen, gated her in there for a cooling off period, and then allowed her back in. I e-mailed my rescue lady from where we got Maemae to get suggestions. She thinks Maemae is resource guarding yours truly and she suggested not allowing her on the couch to sit with me anymore and using NILIF so we started incorporating both of those ideas today. She has seemed a bit more fearful today - closer to how she was when she first got here. I'm thinking that she's probably just adjusting to the change and will bounce back within a few days. Hubby would like to allow her on the couch with him in the evenings after the kiddos are in bed while he studies. What do you think? Should we keep it all or none so that she doesn't get confused or do you think she can handle couch time after hours only?

Also the NILIF protocol says to leave her food out for only 10 minutes and then clean it up. I've always given Maemae more time to eat. Currently I have several reasons for doing so. 1. She was underweight when she came and she's still working on putting on weight. 2. With her being prone to bloat, I don't want to encourage her to scarf down her food too fast. 3. She has an ear infection that we're currently treating, so she's not eating as well as she could be, so I want to give her ample time to eat. So I had her work for a good bit of her food this morning, but once I put her dish down I probably gave her a good hour or so to finish it before picking it up. For her dinner she probably had a good two hours to finish the portion that was left after she worked for some of it. So should I be shortening this time?

Also, my understanding is that she performs some sort of obedience task before any kind of petting, bellyrubbing, etc...? The thing with her is that she's actually an extremely docile temperament and in her early days here I captured sitting with the clicker constantly - so she figured out that it's a pretty decent behavior to offer when she's not sure what to do. Right now that's the only verbal cue she really knows - we're working on others in Family Dog class. So a lot of times when she comes over for attention I have her sit first, but many times she offers a sit right away before I have time to instruct her. Does this mean I need to come up with something else for her to do before she gets attention? When she noses at my hand for attention I just turn my body away from her and ignore her - that usually stops that pretty quickly.

Any additional advice and suggestions for following NILIF correctly and nipping this in the bud is much appreciated!

houndmomma

Well your right about nipping this in the bud before it crosses a line that you can’t go back from. One thing you said gave me pause – (She has seemed a bit more fearful today - closer to how she was when she first got here.) - To me a fearful dog is more dangerous than an aggressive one.

Just to address a few things mentioned tonight – before my brain totally turns off – tomorrow I’ll have a few more ideas I’m sure.

Definitely keep him off all furniture - all the time – you’ll send mixed signals otherwise and remember they don’t tell time so wouldn’t understand the difference of why one time she can’t go up but another time she can. Off is off.

I leave our food down for about 20 to 30 minutes – I also don’t want them to scarf it down. But at the same time, they need to know to eat when it’s around because it’s not a 24 hour restaurant. Also, if this is your only dog – it’s easy to fall into leaving the food down for longer periods of time – but if you were to get another fur baby – it’s not practical.

I would use one of the kind of collars that I use – that’s a comfortable choker – and when your son is around I would keep him on a short lead until your 100% sure that nothing will happen. I can post a link to it if needed. It’s great for training because it’s comfortable – but… since it’s a choker you can do a quick pull to get their attention without hurting them.

I would start having your son put the food down when possible – let him out to potty – let him see your son put the water down – give him treats when she comes in. I understand he’s only four and can’t do it all the time – but it’ll only help.

Regarding her performing some kind of obedience – to start with you can just do a sit before everything – before she eats – before she can go outside – get a treat – before everything – make her sit – then add more commands as you go. It also would only help – to have your son – have her sit before everything she does when he’s around. I’ve always trained with the NILIF protocol. It’s just that some dogs need reminders more than others – you’ve seen Lucy in the videos – she’s the kind that always has to be reminded and she’s 12 ½ years old – poor old gal. Also, when you let her out and have her sit – don’t let her out till you tell her it’s ok. If you’re taking her out to walk or to leave the house – you walk out the door first and then again when you come back home – you walk in the door first. She always follows you – when you say.

It sounds like you’ve already been incorporating the techniques – she might just be like Lucy in the way that she’ll need reminding more than others. Sorry so long – I just prefer to err on the side of caution. I’ve had a rescue hound that no one knew had rage syndrome until he went after my daughter. We tried working with him for a while – till I was going to be taking my daughter out of town and hubby was going to be taking him to our other house and his parents were going to be there – his mother had Parkinson's – I was too afraid if the dog went after my mother-in-law when everyone was outside – she wouldn’t have a chance – so I called the rescue and they took her for the weekend to do more testing on him. When I got back home there was a message for me to call the rescue and not where we dropped off the dog. They put him down when I was gone because of the rage syndrome.

Best of luck and please keep us posted –

Jen~

__________________
Momma to Lucy age 12 ~ Basset Hound
Momma to Rickie age 5 ~ Shi-Poo (don’t tell him though – he thinks he’s a hound dog)
Momma to Mabel age -1 ~ Basset Hound
Momma to Flash – RIP 2000 ~ 2011 – Gone in body but with me in spirit ~ You will live on forever in my heart baby ~ Je t'aime

houndmomma

See what happens when I try and put thoughts together when it’s late – I forgot to add that if you had the choker collar on her and a lead when she’s in the house – had she growled at your son – you could have corrected her right then on the spot and walked her into the kitchen and gated her. A four or six foot lead would be long enough for this – and it would only be until your 100% sure of her behavior.

Jen~

__________________
Momma to Lucy age 12 ~ Basset Hound
Momma to Rickie age 5 ~ Shi-Poo (don’t tell him though – he thinks he’s a hound dog)
Momma to Mabel age -1 ~ Basset Hound
Momma to Flash – RIP 2000 ~ 2011 – Gone in body but with me in spirit ~ You will live on forever in my heart baby ~ Je t'aime

Mikey T

a very difficult rule to enforce since it can often become confusing to the dog when they are allowed on the couch or not. PS easier to keep the child off the couch than the dog once they have been allowed. So that is a question that only you as a family can answer. Can you maintain a no dog on the couch rule? Before you can even do that to avoid problems and physical conforntaition you need to teach the dog an Off command the following video series is IMHO very good way to go about it.


Demonstrating the Off Command to a Dog








if this were the case we should see incidents of resource guarding in other instances/. the question is given the senerio was she actual acting appropriately to "rude behavior" by the 4 year old? ie bounce on the couch disturbing her. There is an old let sleeping dogs lie and there is a reason for this. How the growling esculates to the 4 year old simply when he passes by is quite simple. if she growls when he approaches the couch and he backs off or stops or continue past she learns growling works to protect her from the bouncing. I think it is a reach to acess a behavior to resource guarding on a single incident unless she shows this type of behavior in other aspects, senerios and situations it is not likely the case.


see He Just Wants To Say "Hi!"

Aggression or appropriate response to rudeness? Far too many dogs suffer because handlers & trainers don't know the difference between the two

so you mave a couple of options and most can be used in combination. On is provide a place for her to sleep rest where she will not be disturbed by the four year old and not allow her on the couch. Teach and subervise the four year old on how to act more appropriately when the dog is on the couch. Engage the 4 year old in more of the training and meal prep. so the approach of the 4 year old is more often seen as a good thing. Practice with the four year old geting on and off the couch with the dog. doing so quitely and rewarding the dog for not growing each time as well.

If the behavior were resource guard it should end if you got up off the couch and the four year old passed etc. If not she is if you want to put it in terms of resource guarding guarding the couch or her comfort. There are time when such behavior is totaly appropriate. you need to decide what works for you and your family but also the dog. You simply can't expect the dog willingly to give up a soft comfortable spot on the couch unless an equally enticing bed is provided. Often time hat dictates the better spot for resting is not comfort however but location. A vantage point where one can see everyone else and what is going on often has more value to the dog than simply confort.

Mikey T

the use of punishment with aggresive and agonistic behavior carries a lot of risk


　
The Use of Punishment for Behavior Modification in Animals
AVSAB American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior
[quote]

　AVSAB’s position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals.2


Regardlessof thestrength, punishment cancausesomeindividualstobecomeextremelyfearful, andthisfearcangeneralizetoothercontexts. Some punishments may not cause physical harm and may not seem severe, but they can cause the animal to become fearful, and this fear may generalize to other contexts. For instance, some dogs on which the citronella or electronic collar are used with a preceding tone may react fearfully to alarm clocks, smoke detectors, or egg timers.
6. Punishment canfacilitateorevencauseaggressivebehavior. Punishment has been shown to increase the likelihood of aggressive behavior in many species. Animals in which the punishment does not immediately suppress the behavior may escalate in their efforts to avoid the punishment to the point where they become aggressive. Those who already show aggressive behavior may exhibit more intense and injurious aggressive behaviors.
7. Punishment cansuppressbehaviors, includingthosebehaviorsthat warnthat abitemayoccur. When used effectively, punishment can suppress the behavior of fearful or aggressive animals, but it may not change the association underlying the behavior. Thus, it may not address the underlying problem. For instance, if the

animal is aggressive due to fear, then the use of force to stop the fearful reactions will make the dog more fearful while at the same time suppressing or masking the outward signs of fear. Once it can no longer suppress its fear, the animal may suddenly act with heightened aggression and with fewer warning signs of impending aggression. In other words, it may now attack with no warning.[quote]

having had to deal with a dog that through the use of punishment no longered growled I am particularly sensitive to 7 it is far better for the dog to growl than the most of the alternatives it is left with. On need to keep in mind growling is a sign of the emotional state of the dog, punishing the dog from growling does nothing to change that emotional state. It one feel any less angry, threatened, unhappy the next time the 4 year old approaches however it list of options have decreased. It is why teach an appropriate behavior and changing the emotional response the dog has when the 4 year old approaches is so important.

houndmomma

It’s not punishment – to give a lead a quick “light” tug to take their focus and attention off the subject – while telling them “NO” – then calmly walking them into the other room for time out is not punishment.

I’m with you, I also don’t believe in punishing a dog for their behavior – but to teach them a new more acceptable one and have used the NILIF protocol all my life when training German Sheppards with my father’s business when growing up – then continued into adulthood till the older than dirt age I am now.

You’ve seen the videos of my Lucy who has no problems growling or snapping at Mabel – for months after we got her – I had to wear protection on my hands because she did bit. Before I got her, she lived her first two years of life in a small plastic crate that was only open in the front with bars and only let out for a ½ hour a day. The woman that had her said she couldn’t’ control her and she was too much work.

Since she’s been with me she has never been punished – she’s been taught to respect and follow the rules of the house while at the same time learning for the first time what it’s like to be loved. I don’t believe that dogs enjoy being the alpha – it’s far too stressful to them – and as I watched Lucy learn that she didn’t have to be the alpha and could enjoy life as a pack member instead of leader – I watched her learn to relax. I believe that for a few months she had to wear a two foot lead around the house – it was to get her attention off her focus and to redirect it – not to punish her. And being a mom – I don’t think you can be too careful when you have kids around the house.

Just my thoughts…

Jen~

__________________
Momma to Lucy age 12 ~ Basset Hound
Momma to Rickie age 5 ~ Shi-Poo (don’t tell him though – he thinks he’s a hound dog)
Momma to Mabel age -1 ~ Basset Hound
Momma to Flash – RIP 2000 ~ 2011 – Gone in body but with me in spirit ~ You will live on forever in my heart baby ~ Je t'aime

Mikey T

a correct is punishment in that it is adversive something the dog wants to avoid. Yelling No may or may not be an adversive depends on the dog and how it is said. A time out is defenitely punishment but it is not necesarly and adversive.

Punishment from a behaviorist point of view is anything that reduces the likelihood of a behavior to occur
A time out is general referred to as negaitive punishament negative mean something is removed ie attention Adding something like a "correction: would be called positive punishment.


If you were to practice the a correction in this situation on Mariah who happen to be touch sensitive in such a situation it is likely you would turn a man agable situation into one where someone got bit. Not saying Punishment does not work by its very definition it has to work but in the case of this postion statement the word adversive can be and should be supstitute for punishment as from a behavioral standpoint that is what it is even though common language has a different meaning. That said adversive and punishment can work and do work in dog training however they can a lot more negative than using reinforcement. So unless the person using the punishment is skilled in it I can never recommend it and simply pointing out the potential problems with its use.

houndmomma

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey T Yelling No may or may not be an adversive depends on the dog and how it is said. A time out is defenitely punishment but it is not necesarly and adversive. So unless the person using the punishment is skilled in it I can never recommend it and simply pointing out the potential problems with its use.

Just to clarify – I said that I “said no” – I didn’t “yell no” (maybe I shouldn’t have put it in caps – since caps on the web is yelling, my bad). I work with a very calm voice when correcting to not elevate the situation any more than it is. There has to be some sort of action taken to defuse the situation.

And as I mentioned in the videos with Lucy, you can clearly see that the way I’ve defused situations that she’s been in – has not been done in such a way to break her spirit – she is still very vocal in her feelings – and I encourage them – as long as she knows the line she can’t cross – she can and does talk all day long.

On the whole I’ve already said that I agree with most of what you’ve said – and I’ll add that I can understand that you would want to err on the side of caution and not recommend and simply point out the potential problems – as I’m sure because I’ve been doing this for so many years – most things I do are done without thinking and are second nature to me and I forget to add steps possibly.

Jen~

__________________
Momma to Lucy age 12 ~ Basset Hound
Momma to Rickie age 5 ~ Shi-Poo (don’t tell him though – he thinks he’s a hound dog)
Momma to Mabel age -1 ~ Basset Hound
Momma to Flash – RIP 2000 ~ 2011 – Gone in body but with me in spirit ~ You will live on forever in my heart baby ~ Je t'aime

Lightning&Stomps

When I had Stomps and Lightning, Stomps would occasionally attack Lightning. In order to keep order, I had to banish Stomps from sitting or sleeping with me. I hated it, but it worked. With a rescue it can take months for such issues to show up. So at least until the pecking order is established in your house, I would banish Maemae from the couch. If your hubby wants to snuggle, he needs to get down on the floor with her. And I wouldn't let her sleep with you either. If your youngster was older, I would have him or her do obedience with Maemae. But 4 is probably a smidge young for that. Once the child is older and can work with Maemae, you might allow her back on the couch. Good luck and keep us updated on how things go.

bubbad

I have not had Esa growl at a child since I have no young children at home but at about 10 months old I was getting a photo taken for christmas cards with Esa and Vinny,I had the reindeer antlers ,of course,and when I wasn't watching Esa took them and wanted to rip them apart,when I went to get them back she growled then snapped at my hand,in a split second I had her lips in my hand and made her look in my eyes and growled,something like "That better not happen again!". Now ,I am not saying you need to do this at all, just saying what I did because the growl and snap was directed at me. I did not cause her pain ,I was not pinching her lips, I just used them as a guide to get her to focus on my eyes. I know MikeyT did not agree with me on this before and I don't expect him to now,and I am of the mind set that I do not need to substitute for everything I take from my dog. That was her correction.This is not something you do with a rescue dog because you may not know the history,but it did not harm Esa in any way.She loves everybody especially kids, they can take anything from her. Every dog is different in how you correct or disipline them,find what works for you,and be consistant.