These puppies are wild!

mabrooks · 01-21-2012, 11:06 AM

I'm the mother of the two same sex same litter almost 11 week old basset puppies. We have had some improvements with some things, not so much with others. The boys are doing pretty good with housetraining. They have mastered the doggie door and the big one, bo, is very comfortable going in and out multiple times a day. That's not to say he doesn't get a little lazy and have accidents, but overall he knows what he is suppose to do. Bo is also my problem puppy because he has so much energy and zest for life that he gets so very wild in his playing with his brother that he doesn't seem to realize his own strength. Bernie the smaller one tries to hold his own, but Bo is just so much bigger that I'm usually pulling Bo off of him at least 3 times a day because their playfighting gets ugly. He is so stubborn. I've talked to several people who have owned a basset puppy about his aggression and everyone seems to think it's a little extreme. I'm concerned about it and not sure if it's normal. He's not always wild, but his playing just escalates to a level where I have to separate them like a timeout to get him to calm down. The next minute they will be kissing each other. They are sleeping pretty good at night. A couple days ago they slept 7 straight hours through the night. It was like a miracle for me considering I hadn't had more than 5 hours straight of sleep since they have been home. Then last night they were up almost every hour. Does anyone have a general idea of when this crazy puppy phase will subside? I love them both so very much. Their individual personalities are like night and day and we are bonding with them individually which is wonderful. I'm so looking forward to next week to finish up their immunizations so we can get them out of the house/yard and hit the dog park and take a real walk with them. I'm hoping the new experiences and exercises will calm them down a bit. I also had a question about neutering. At what age is this good to do? Is it good to do? Should they both get neutered? I only want to do what's best for them as brothers and for our family well being.

Barney'spal · 01-21-2012, 11:31 AM

aw mabrooks...what a handful you have.

There are people on here who will help. My opinion, which really isn't worth much, is to let them play fight...but then I'm not there. They say that as long as the blood isn't flowing to let them work it out themselves...that they need to complete the discussion that they are having. Mikey will be along to explain it you. As far as neutering, there are alot of different opinions on this one. Weigh each one and do what you're comfortable with. It sounds like you must be doing everything right as far as housetraining goes....I swear by dog doors..it makes it go so much faster. Where are the pictures?????

barneysmom2510 · 01-21-2012, 12:47 PM

Let them playfight it is normal and good for them. When a dog is play biting another dog and nips him it does not hurt the way it would us. I would just seperate them sometimes if it starts to drive you nuts. I have seen Barney playing with some puppies and it can get pretty wild and it does look they are hurting eachother but they are not. Barney is 7 months and still very active he has not mellowed out he is not super hyper but he and my chihuahua will play all the time. Every dog is of course different but with two they will stay active for a longer period because they have each other to feed off of. You definitely will have your hands full but I woud start with getting them into some training classes that will help alot. I can still remember having my two dachshunds as puppies at the same time and it takes alot of patience. Here was the latest thread on the best time to neuter.
Advice Needed

bubbad · 01-21-2012, 01:41 PM

There are many threads on this very thing.I breed and I would not sell two puppies of the same age of the same litter to anyone.I tell them get a head start on one then get another. Let the puppies go at it Two puppies is bad enough ,you haven't seen a whole litter that does the exact thing,sounds like they will rip each other apart but they don't. You must work with them on bite inhabition of which MikeyT can give you the corner on that. They both should be neutered at 6 months in this case, or you may have them going at each other for a while ,you need to teach them what you want them to know or they will teach themselves and you won't be happy. Try to find a couple of the other threads on this forum concerning having two puppies or aggressive puppies.Good Luck

Mikey T · 01-22-2012, 10:56 AM

Quote:

I'm usually pulling Bo off of him at least 3 times a day because their playfighting gets ugly. He is so stubborn. I've talked to several people who have owned a basset puppy about his aggression and everyone seems to think it's a little extreme

In general i think most people are overly concerned with rough play in dogs and usually do more harm than good separating it

see Is Your Dog’s Rough Play Appropriate?

Quote:

Even though play fighting is very different from real fighting, people often feel the need to intervene. Sometimes it is obvious at the beginning of a bout that two dogs are playing, but once the dogs start growling or their arousal intensifies, observers may no longer be sure that the dogs are still playing. After all, humans instinctively avoid a dog who is snarling or baring his teeth, and it is natural to think that our dogs should do the same. When people interrupt really rowdy play, they assume that they are “playing it safe,” that is, doing no harm. But what if this assumption is mistaken?
Our research shows that for many dogs, play fighting is the primary method used to negotiate new relationships and develop lasting friendships. Although play is fun, it also offers serious opportunities to communicate with another dog. In this sense, play is a kind of language. Thus, when we regularly break up what we consider “inappropriate” play, are we doing our dogs a service, or confusing them by constantly butting into their private conversations? Most importantly, how can we tell the difference?

We encourage you to discard any preconceived notions about what dog play should and should not look like — at least for the time being. For example, are traditional “no-no’s” like neck biting, rearing up, body-slamming and repeated pinning by one dog ever okay when two dogs are playing? It all depends on the individual dogs and the kind of relationship they have with one another.
Consider an example of a close canine friendship founded on unorthodox play. When Sage, a one-year-old German Shepherd, first met Sam, a four-month old Labradoodle, he was very rough with Sam. He would pin Sam with a neck bite every few seconds. No sooner would Sam stand up than Sage would neckbite him and flip him on his back again. At first, we thought that Sage might be too rough for Sam, so we would intervene by holding one or both of them back. However, each time, Sam would try his hardest to get to Sage, despite the inevitable pinning. As Sam grew larger, eventually matching Sage in weight, Sage added body slams and mounting to their play. With the exception of frequent rear-ups (in which they adopted identical roles, facing one another and boxing with their front paws), Sage usually maintained the more assertive role (neck biting, pinning, slamming and so forth). Yet, because Sam was always an enthusiastic partner, we let them continue to play together.
To this day, their play remains asymmetrical; Sage repeatedly brings down Sam with neck bites and continues to bite Sam’s neck once he is down. Sam wriggles on the ground and flails at Sage with his legs while Sage, growling loudly, keeps biting Sam’s neck. More than once, bystanders have thought the dogs were fighting for real, but Sage’s neck bites never harm Sam, and Sam never stops smiling, even when he’s down. Sometimes, when Sage is done playing but Sam is not, he’ll approach Sage and offer his neck, as though saying, “Here’s my neck; go ahead and pin me.” This move always succeeds; it’s an offer Sage cannot resist.
With Sage and Sam, allowing play to continue was the right decision. Their early play interactions burgeoned into a lifelong friendship. Even today, the two middle-aged boys will sometimes play together for five hours at a stretch, stopping only occasionally for brief rests. When they are finally done, they often lie together, completely relaxed, with their bodies touching. Their faces are loose and smiling, and they seem almost drunk in an endorphin-induced haze.
This relationship shows that play does not necessarily have to be fair or balanced in order for two dogs to want to play with one another. Years ago, scientists proposed a 50/50 rule: for two individuals to engage in play, they must take turns being in the more assertive role. Scientists thought that if one individual was too rough or forceful (e.g., pinning her partner much more often than she was being pinned), the other dog would not want to play. Until our research, this proposition was never empirically tested.
Over a 10-year period, we studied pair-wise play between adult dogs, between adult dogs and adolescents, and between puppy littermates. Our findings showed that the 50/50 rule simply did not apply. Dogs do not need to take turns being assertive in order for play to take place. However, this doesn’t mean that dogs never role-reverse during play, because they often do2 (e.g., Sage is in the top-dog position most of the time, but sometimes Sam gets to be top dog too). It just means that role reversals usually aren’t equally balanced.
Surprisingly, in some of the relationships we studied, individuals initiated play and preferred to play with others who were consistently assertive with them. For example, in a litter of mixedbreed puppies, one female, Pink, initiated play with a female littermate, Blue, more than twice as often as she initiated play with any of her other littermates (including another sister), even though Blue adopted the assertive role during play 100 percent of the time. Similarly, in our study of adult dogs, when the female German Shepherd, Safi, was playing, she was virtually always in the top-dog role. Despite this imbalance, other dogs sought Safi’s company and often invited her to play.

Sometimes people interrupt these interactions because they fear that rough play will escalate into an allout dogfight. However, in hundreds of hours of observations of play fighting between two dogs with established relationships, we have never witnessed a single escalation to real fighting

...Although we recommend carefully monitoring play between dogs who are significantly different in size or age, or who do not know each other well, our studies have shown that dogs are very good at figuring out which dogs they want to play with and how to play well with their friends. Presumably, dogs are better than humans at speaking and understanding dog language. Perhaps it is time to humble ourselves and listen to them.

Ask the AKC Behaviorist - When is rough play too Rough

if after reading these articles you are stillcopnvinced Bo is too rough you are going to need to learn to intervene sooner that when play arousal is increasing but not over the top if you expect the dog to learn self control also you are coing to need another outlet for Bo that can help him learn self control as well I would suggest
Tug of War

[quote]

Dog owners have been admonished for decades to never play tug of war with their dogs because of the risk of it increasing aggression and/or dominance in the dog. Even many dog resource people such as breeders, trainers and veterinarians caution against this game. This is partly a failure to discriminate between agonistic behavior (conflict resolution & defensive aggression) and predatory behavior. Also, many people have issues about witnessing intensity. Intensity is not aggression, however.

Played with rules, tug-of-war is a tremendous predatory energy burner and good exercise for both dog and owner. It serves as a barometer of the kind of control you have over the dog, most importantly over his jaws. The game doesn't make the dog a predator: he already is one. The game is an outlet. It’s intense, increases dog focus and confidence and plugs into something very deep inside them. The big payoff is in lowered incidence of behavior problems due to understimulation and a potent motivator for snappy obedience. There is a maxim in training: control the games, control the dog. It's also extremely efficient in terms of space and time requirements [/url]

To Tug or Not? Seriously that is still a question?

Quote:

Somewhere, 30 years ago, someone got the idea that tug-of-war games created aggressive behaviors in dogs. Perhaps it was because some dogs growl when playing tug and since aggression in dogs wasn't very well understood back then, it was believed all growling was aggressive behavior. Since then, we have learned that dogs growl for different reasons, not just out of aggression.

In 2002, a study was done to determine whether or not playing tug increased the incidence of aggressive or "dominant" behaviors. The researchers concluded that tug games had no negative effects on the relationship between the dog and human.

As a matter of fact, tug of war is not only an excellent reward in dog training, but it is a valuable exercise in teaching dogs self-control. Tug games are used to reward canine competitors of many sports including agility, flyball and protection sports.

barneysmom2510 · 01-22-2012, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubbad

There are many threads on this very thing.I breed and I would not sell two puppies of the same age of the same litter to anyone.I tell them get a head start on one then get another. Let the puppies go at it Two puppies is bad enough ,you haven't seen a whole litter that does the exact thing,sounds like they will rip each other apart but they don't. You must work with them on bite inhabition of which MikeyT can give you the corner on that. They both should be neutered at 6 months in this case, or you may have them going at each other for a while ,you need to teach them what you want them to know or they will teach themselves and you won't be happy. Try to find a couple of the other threads on this forum concerning having two puppies or aggressive puppies.Good Luck

I am surprised at the breeder's who sell two at the same time they should know what a challenge it is going to be for people. I got my puppies a week apart but from seperate breeders.

bubbad · 01-22-2012, 12:18 PM

When my litter was available I had a man contact me who lost a boy to cancer and he was thinking of buying two . I was able to talk him out of it since he had never raised a puppy before ,what do you think would have happened with two,he would have flipped out and I probably would have had one puppy back if not two.Honestly,and I don't mean this to be smart or nasty, but even getting two a week apart (isn't very different from getting two from same breeder) from two different breeders is still not something I would recommend. Waiting 6 months to a year is a better way simply because you don't have teething and housetraining x 2.

barneysmom2510 · 01-22-2012, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubbad

When my litter was available I had a man contact me who lost a boy to cancer and he was thinking of buying two . I was able to talk him out of it since he had never raised a puppy before ,what do you think would have happened with two,he would have flipped out and I probably would have had one puppy back if not two.Honestly,and I don't mean this to be smart or nasty, but even getting two a week apart (isn't very different from getting two from same breeder) from two different breeders is still not something I would recommend. Waiting 6 months to a year is a better way simply because you don't have teething and housetraining x 2.

I would never get two at the same time again that was ten years ago and I can still remember how hard it was. I really had no idea what I was getting myself into. I had to do all new wall to wall in my living room they would pull it up at the walls and the housebreaking took forever. Luckily I was grooming so they could come with me alot and they were both uner 10 pounds but still it was crazy. I was surprised a breeder would sell two of her puppies from the same litter to one person.

01-21-2012, 11:06 AM	#1 (permalink)
mabrooks Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 44	These puppies are wild! I'm the mother of the two same sex same litter almost 11 week old basset puppies. We have had some improvements with some things, not so much with others. The boys are doing pretty good with housetraining. They have mastered the doggie door and the big one, bo, is very comfortable going in and out multiple times a day. That's not to say he doesn't get a little lazy and have accidents, but overall he knows what he is suppose to do. Bo is also my problem puppy because he has so much energy and zest for life that he gets so very wild in his playing with his brother that he doesn't seem to realize his own strength. Bernie the smaller one tries to hold his own, but Bo is just so much bigger that I'm usually pulling Bo off of him at least 3 times a day because their playfighting gets ugly. He is so stubborn. I've talked to several people who have owned a basset puppy about his aggression and everyone seems to think it's a little extreme. I'm concerned about it and not sure if it's normal. He's not always wild, but his playing just escalates to a level where I have to separate them like a timeout to get him to calm down. The next minute they will be kissing each other. They are sleeping pretty good at night. A couple days ago they slept 7 straight hours through the night. It was like a miracle for me considering I hadn't had more than 5 hours straight of sleep since they have been home. Then last night they were up almost every hour. Does anyone have a general idea of when this crazy puppy phase will subside? I love them both so very much. Their individual personalities are like night and day and we are bonding with them individually which is wonderful. I'm so looking forward to next week to finish up their immunizations so we can get them out of the house/yard and hit the dog park and take a real walk with them. I'm hoping the new experiences and exercises will calm them down a bit. I also had a question about neutering. At what age is this good to do? Is it good to do? Should they both get neutered? I only want to do what's best for them as brothers and for our family well being.

01-21-2012, 11:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
Barney'spal Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: northern michigan Posts: 710	aw mabrooks...what a handful you have. There are people on here who will help. My opinion, which really isn't worth much, is to let them play fight...but then I'm not there. They say that as long as the blood isn't flowing to let them work it out themselves...that they need to complete the discussion that they are having. Mikey will be along to explain it you. As far as neutering, there are alot of different opinions on this one. Weigh each one and do what you're comfortable with. It sounds like you must be doing everything right as far as housetraining goes....I swear by dog doors..it makes it go so much faster. Where are the pictures????? __________________ Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend.

01-21-2012, 12:47 PM	#3 (permalink)
barneysmom2510 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rockport ma Posts: 633	Let them playfight it is normal and good for them. When a dog is play biting another dog and nips him it does not hurt the way it would us. I would just seperate them sometimes if it starts to drive you nuts. I have seen Barney playing with some puppies and it can get pretty wild and it does look they are hurting eachother but they are not. Barney is 7 months and still very active he has not mellowed out he is not super hyper but he and my chihuahua will play all the time. Every dog is of course different but with two they will stay active for a longer period because they have each other to feed off of. You definitely will have your hands full but I woud start with getting them into some training classes that will help alot. I can still remember having my two dachshunds as puppies at the same time and it takes alot of patience. Here was the latest thread on the best time to neuter. Advice Needed __________________ -LISA Mini daschunds Sadie Lou & Daisy dukes Chihuahua Lola Bassett Hound Barney

01-21-2012, 01:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
bubbad Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Boiling Springs,Pa Posts: 1,347	There are many threads on this very thing.I breed and I would not sell two puppies of the same age of the same litter to anyone.I tell them get a head start on one then get another. Let the puppies go at it Two puppies is bad enough ,you haven't seen a whole litter that does the exact thing,sounds like they will rip each other apart but they don't. You must work with them on bite inhabition of which MikeyT can give you the corner on that. They both should be neutered at 6 months in this case, or you may have them going at each other for a while ,you need to teach them what you want them to know or they will teach themselves and you won't be happy. Try to find a couple of the other threads on this forum concerning having two puppies or aggressive puppies.Good Luck

01-22-2012, 12:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
bubbad Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Boiling Springs,Pa Posts: 1,347	When my litter was available I had a man contact me who lost a boy to cancer and he was thinking of buying two . I was able to talk him out of it since he had never raised a puppy before ,what do you think would have happened with two,he would have flipped out and I probably would have had one puppy back if not two.Honestly,and I don't mean this to be smart or nasty, but even getting two a week apart (isn't very different from getting two from same breeder) from two different breeders is still not something I would recommend. Waiting 6 months to a year is a better way simply because you don't have teething and housetraining x 2.

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