Dog Diet - info for all - Page 2

Mikey T · 01-07-2012, 01:23 PM

[quote]Maybe a month into it her scratching was reduced by 99%.[quote]

omega 3 fatty acid lower skin inflamation while omega 6 while genet reult is na healthier shibnier coat are tied to increased skin inflamation so dogs with allergies or skin conditions of do better with a lower omega six to three ration than the average dog. the aveage dog in studies is optimal at from 10-1 to 5-1 in an allergig dog an even lower ratio is likely to be benfitio feed a fish based diet or a number certain plant oil like flax seed and increase omega 3 but most plant oil are hgh in six and low in three. Most kibble are low in fat to begin with and tend toward high omega 6 to 3 ratio.

Quote:

was told that fish is low on the allergy list for dogs.

that is total immaterial food allergies occur to the protein source the dog is exposed to usually the one the dog is exposed to the most. Since most dog have not been exposed to fish there is a low fish allergy rate so every flock to this type of food as some magic cure or prevention and it is not it was not that many years ago lamb and rice was teh novel food rage now wel we see alergy rate on the rise to these ingredients. keep in mind that grain while heavely carbohydrate also contain protein hence the cause of allergies to them as well

What need to also be kept in mind is the actual allergy rate to food is much lower than people realise it only constitues 10-15 of all allergies in dogs and 80 percent of dogs with food allergies also have atopic allergies as well. that is allergies fron contact or inhillation like dust and pollen so while people look to food as the first sourse of an allergy it rarely is and given the nature of allergies which is not caused by food but a genetic predisposition why would you feed a limited ingrediet diet with the implications for excess and lack of needed nutrient to a dog that shows no predilection for an allergy I just don't get it/ Sure you need to make accompdation for the allergic dog that is the nature of nutrition when can make generalization based on the general population but what a particular individual need to be optimal is going to be different than the general population This is the problem with most dog food discussion it does not take into account life style difference and such for the individual dog.

Mikey T · 01-07-2012, 02:12 PM

1. i don't feed a particular brand protien source etc. The reason is quite simple there are feed guidline that are the bible of what is is not health there are also feed studies,. feed studies las six months to a year max it takes much looker for most nutrional defficienies to manifest it self. The idea that we posible know enough to clam any one collection of ingreidients is compete and balance to me is ludricis on this basis many homemade diets are no better than kibble it is the same collection of ingredients fed day after day in the same ratio. Doing this is going to exaserbate any excess or deficiencies in the diet. No self respecting nutrionist for human advocates a limited ingredient list. (that is to a limited list 20 or less) as possied to restriction ie no dairy etc. as being healthy there are to many unkowns to say any diet is complete and balance so variety offers the guard against missing a key unkown dietary ingredient or getting to much of one that is thought safe at a high level.

2. Realatively high protein ideally over 32 but I do feed as low as 26% protein but only in the winter months when the dogs are less active. In sled dog test protein leves of 32% or higher resulted in no soft tissue injuries in working dog in dogs with a ~24% protein quite a number of dog had injuries and at 16% or less every dog incured and injury. The protein requires of atheletic dogs ie dogs that work is higher the feed standard suggest. There was once a though high protein diet contributed to renal failure base on rat studies. this late bore out to be false in both humans and dogs. it is now well established that older dogs need higher protein levels up to 50% higher than younger adult not less as was and still is occuring in manny senior formulas

2, high fat. 20% by weight minimum which since fat has ~ twice the caloric content per lb than carb or protein 40% or more by caloric content. Unlike humans dogs are more efficient at burning fat for energy than sugar. especial during aerobic endurance activity like sled dog racing or hunting.

carbs are a necessary evil with kibble it simply can not be made with out it but it is possible to keep the percentage down most kibble as is 50% carb or more by weight. a no grain high protein high fat kibble can be asl low as 15-17% this is wher I have a problem with raw vs kibble debate the variety of each is to great to even have a reasonable comparison it is possible easily possible to have a rawdiet with more carbs than kibble etc the variety of each render much of the debate pointless.

currently right know I am avoiding Chicken It appear Fischer has a mild intolerance to it that is he is much gassier and tend to skip meals when fed food with chicken the higher the content the more likely there are no allergy or allergy symptoms but this is the only protein source I am limiting.

Suppliment the only suppliment i use is for glycogen replenishment after exercise
Glycogen Replenishment in Hard Working Dogs

Quote:

Dogs that participate in activities such as sled dog racing, pack hound hunting, field trialing and working livestock will typically have increased energy requirements. These dogs, along with greyhounds, search and rescue, military and police dogs may also have special requirements for carbohydrates post-exercise.

Recently, it was found that dogs which are exercised at 75-80 % VO2 max could only replace 65% of the pre-exercise levels of muscle glycogen within 24 hours when fed a normal food ration. This level of exercise intensity would be approximately equivalent to the amount of effort hunting fox hounds or sprint sled racing dogs would typically expend. Dogs that perform intense exercise, especially on successive days or successive times in one day, may require a supplemental carbohydrate source post-exercise to help them recover and replenish glycogen stores.

Recent research has shown that the most effective way to replenish carbohydrates in a canine athlete is through provision of modified starches called maltodextrins. Maltodextrins are 8-20 glucose units long, therefore, they fall between simple sugar and complex starches in structure. Maltodextrins are rapidly absorbed and taken up by the muscle without the insulin spikes or other associated GI problems attributed to other carbohydrate

While they are a raw manufacture and suporter i find the Wysong Learning Center good and generally (except when exposing the virtues of raw) unbiased and debunk many marketing claims such as bad grains, by product are bad, muscle meat is good, euthanized pets as pet food etc.
for example Corn and Soy

Quote:

: Why does Wysong use corn and/or soy in their diets, aren't these just cheap fillers?

A: Nothing is used as a "filler" in Wysong Pet Diets. Please note that Wysong dry foods contain the highest level of fresh meat and organs (not dried pre-processed meat meals) possible in an extruded dry food. Corn and soy are only used in some Wysong pet foods. Aside from the natural nutrition whole corn and soy provide - essential fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, complex carbohydrates, fiber - they help permit the manufacture of a dry diet. The starch in grains gelatinizes around the meat ingredients shaping the nugget, changing starch to a digestible form, and permitting the meat to be dried into a shelf stable form. Whether corn is used for this purpose or any other grain such as wheat, rice, barley, potato, etc., makes little difference if diets are being rotated as they should be.

Don't be fooled by the various marketing campaigns to demonize certain grains (such as corn) in order to increase the sales of products that do not have the boogeyman ingredients. The pet food market place is highly competitive and it is common for companies to pander to myths about boogeyman ingredients in order to gain sales: "corn is evil; buy my product because it contains not corn." Also, do not assume that these ingredients will cause allergic or sensitivity reactions as commonly believed. Thousands of animals that supposedly react to these ingredients not only do not react to Wysong Diets, but thrive on them if they are rotated as described in the Wysong Optimal Health Program™.

i also feed many thing you are never ever suppose to give to dogs like grapes and garlic even chocolate.
Wysong on Garlic

Quote:

There are numerous articles out there regarding the toxicity of Garlic in dogs. The toxicity of Garlic, or anything for that matter, is dose-dependent. (See The Myth of 100% Complete and Balanced Pet Foods.) In many cases that which is toxic at a certain dose is beneficial at another. Beneficial levels of garlic are used in Wysong pet diets.

Mikey T · 01-07-2012, 02:24 PM

1. i don't feed a particular brand protien source etc. The reason is quite simple there are feed guidline that are the bible of what is is not health there are also feed studies,. feed studies las six months to a year max it takes much looker for most nutrional defficienies to manifest it self. The idea that we posible know enough to clam any one collection of ingreidients is compete and balance to me is ludricis on this basis many homemade diets are no better than kibble it is the same collection of ingredients fed day after day in the same ratio. Doing this is going to exaserbate any excess or deficiencies in the diet. No self respecting nutrionist for human advocates a limited ingredient list. (that is to a limited list 20 or less) as possied to restriction ie no dairy etc. as being healthy there are to many unkowns to say any diet is complete and balance so variety offers the guard against missing a key unkown dietary ingredient or getting to much of one that is thought safe at a high level.

2. Realatively high protein ideally over 32 but I do feed as low as 26% protein but only in the winter months when the dogs are less active. In sled dog test protein leves of 32% or higher resulted in no soft tissue injuries in working dog in dogs with a ~24% protein quite a number of dog had injuries and at 16% or less every dog incured and injury. The protein requires of atheletic dogs ie dogs that work is higher the feed standard suggest. There was once a though high protein diet contributed to renal failure base on rat studies. this late bore out to be false in both humans and dogs. it is now well established that older dogs need higher protein levels up to 50% higher than younger adult not less as was and still is occuring in manny senior formulas

2, high fat. 20% by weight minimum which since fat has ~ twice the caloric content per lb than carb or protein 40% or more by caloric content. Unlike humans dogs are more efficient at burning fat for energy than sugar. especial during aerobic endurance activity like sled dog racing or hunting.

carbs are a necessary evil with kibble it simply can not be made with out it but it is possible to keep the percentage down most kibble as is 50% carb or more by weight. a no grain high protein high fat kibble can be asl low as 15-17% this is wher I have a problem with raw vs kibble debate the variety of each is to great to even have a reasonable comparison it is possible easily possible to have a rawdiet with more carbs than kibble etc the variety of each render much of the debate pointless.

currently right know I am avoiding Chicken It appear Fischer has a mild intolerance to it that is he is much gassier and tend to skip meals when fed food with chicken the higher the content the more likely there are no allergy or allergy symptoms but this is the only protein source I am limiting.

Suppliment the only suppliment i use is for glycogen replenishment after exercise
Glycogen Replenishment in Hard Working Dogs

Quote:

Dogs that participate in activities such as sled dog racing, pack hound hunting, field trialing and working livestock will typically have increased energy requirements. These dogs, along with greyhounds, search and rescue, military and police dogs may also have special requirements for carbohydrates post-exercise.

Recently, it was found that dogs which are exercised at 75-80 % VO2 max could only replace 65% of the pre-exercise levels of muscle glycogen within 24 hours when fed a normal food ration. This level of exercise intensity would be approximately equivalent to the amount of effort hunting fox hounds or sprint sled racing dogs would typically expend. Dogs that perform intense exercise, especially on successive days or successive times in one day, may require a supplemental carbohydrate source post-exercise to help them recover and replenish glycogen stores.

Recent research has shown that the most effective way to replenish carbohydrates in a canine athlete is through provision of modified starches called maltodextrins. Maltodextrins are 8-20 glucose units long, therefore, they fall between simple sugar and complex starches in structure. Maltodextrins are rapidly absorbed and taken up by the muscle without the insulin spikes or other associated GI problems attributed to other carbohydrate

While they are a raw manufacture and suporter i find the Wysong Learning Center good and generally (except when exposing the virtues of raw) unbiased and debunk many marketing claims such as bad grains, by product are bad, muscle meat is good, euthanized pets as pet food etc.
for example

Corn and Soy

Quote:

: Why does Wysong use corn and/or soy in their diets, aren't these just cheap fillers?

Quote:

A: Nothing is used as a "filler" in Wysong Pet Diets. Please note that Wysong dry foods contain the highest level of fresh meat and organs (not dried pre-processed meat meals) possible in an extruded dry food. Corn and soy are only used in some Wysong pet foods. Aside from the natural nutrition whole corn and soy provide - essential fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, complex carbohydrates, fiber - they help permit the manufacture of a dry diet. The starch in grains gelatinizes around the meat ingredients shaping the nugget, changing starch to a digestible form, and permitting the meat to be dried into a shelf stable form. Whether corn is used for this purpose or any other grain such as wheat, rice, barley, potato, etc., makes little difference if diets are being rotated as they should be.
Don't be fooled by the various marketing campaigns to demonize certain grains (such as corn) in order to increase the sales of products that do not have the boogeyman ingredients. The pet food market place is highly competitive and it is common for companies to pander to myths about boogeyman ingredients in order to gain sales: "corn is evil; buy my product because it contains not corn." Also, do not assume that these ingredients will cause allergic or sensitivity reactions as commonly believed. Thousands of animals that supposedly react to these ingredients not only do not react to Wysong Diets, but thrive on them if they are rotated as described in the Wysong Optimal Health Program™.

i also feed many thing you are never ever suppose to give to dogs like grapes and garlic even chocolate.
[quote]: Why does Wysong use corn and/or soy in their diets, aren't these just cheap fillers?

A: Nothing is used as a "filler" in Wysong Pet Diets. Please note that Wysong dry foods contain the highest level of fresh meat and organs (not dried pre-processed meat meals) possible in an extruded dry food. Corn and soy are only used in some Wysong pet foods. Aside from the natural nutrition whole corn and soy provide - essential fatty acids, vitamins, minerals, complex carbohydrates, fiber - they help permit the manufacture of a dry diet. The starch in grains gelatinizes around the meat ingredients shaping the nugget, changing starch to a digestible form, and permitting the meat to be dried into a shelf stable form. Whether corn is used for this purpose or any other grain such as wheat, rice, barley, potato, etc., makes little difference if diets are being rotated as they should be.
Don't be fooled by the various marketing campaigns to demonize certain grains (such as corn) in order to increase the sales of products that do not have the boogeyman ingredients. The pet food market place is highly competitive and it is common for companies to pander to myths about boogeyman ingredients in order to gain sales: "corn is evil; buy my product because it contains not corn." Also, do not assume that these ingredients will cause allergic or sensitivity reactions as commonly believed. Thousands of animals that supposedly react to these ingredients not only do not react to Wysong Diets, but thrive on them if they are rotated as described in the Wysong Optimal Health Program™.

Jnfr · 01-07-2012, 03:07 PM

I feed Abby Royal Canine LP (low protein). It is a Rx dog food I have to get from the vet. I do this because she has kidney disease and we almost lost her to renal failure when she was about 6 mo. old. However, looking at her today (her size, her energy, her devilish personality) you would never know she had/has any health issues.

The special food is supplemented with Azodyl (3 pills a day) and an antacid which serves as a phosphate binder.

I have checked out many sites about cooking for pets with kidney disease, but none of them seemed 'credible' enough for me. Not willing to change what is working for something iffy.

I would like to learn more about cooking for her dietary needs. All home cooking I see for dogs seem to be really high protein, which won't work for her.

iheartbassets4 · 01-07-2012, 03:16 PM

My dog eats beagle mix puppy eats Blue Wilderness Puppy, Bassets eat Taste of the Wild High Prairie rotated with other flavors.

I chose this because I could no longer afford raw (meat prices have sky rocketed) and, based on my research, I believe that a grain-free diet is best for my dogs.

I would like to learn more about dog nutrition in general... I find it very interesting and don't believe that I can learn too much.

Here are some helpful links I have read about:

Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble
So You Are Confused By Dog Food - Food & Nutrition Forum
The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?

Annie714 · 01-07-2012, 03:33 PM

Annie eats Rotations dog food currently. She rotates through the lamb and the salmon varieties changing flavors roughly every 3 weeks. With her AM kibble she also gets 1/2tsp of Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics and a scoop of canned food. With her PM kibble she gets 1tsp of LifeLine Organic Kelp and a scoop of canned food.

Ideally I'd like to feed her a kibble that already has probiotics in it...so I'm a month or two away from switching her kibble. I'm looking at a few options but my top choice thus far is Taste of The Wild. For those who feed TOTW already, can you rotate through their flavors without a lengthy transition period? I can look all the info up myself and usually do, but if anyone knows off-hand that would be cool.

barneysmom2510 · 01-07-2012, 04:25 PM

I forgot to mention I only started the omega 3 3 days ago. Before then They had only had chicken, duck, turkey, veal heart, beef heart, beef kidney, canned sardines(only maybe three for each dog),pork.

[quote=Mikey T;128498][quote]Maybe a month into it her scratching was reduced by 99%.

Quote:

omega 3 fatty acid lower skin inflamation while omega 6 while genet reult is na healthier shibnier coat increased skin inflamation so dogs with allergies or skin conditions of do better with a lower omega six to three ration than the average dog. the aveage dog in studies is optimal at from 10-1 to 5-1 in an allergig dog an even lower ratio is likely to be benfitio feed a fish based diet or a number certain plant oil like flax seed and increase omega 3 but most plant oil are hgh in six and low in three. Most kibble are low in fat to begin with and tend toward high omega 6 to 3 ratio.

that is total immaterial food allergies occur to the protein source the dog is exposed to usually the one the dog is exposed to the most. Since most dog have not been exposed to fish there is a low fish allergy rate so every flock to this type of food as some magic cure or prevention and it is not it was not that many years ago lamb and rice was teh novel food rage now wel we see alergy rate on the rise to these ingredients. keep in mind that grain while heavely carbohydrate also contain protein hence the cause of allergies to them as well

What need to also be kept in mind is the actual allergy rate to food is much lower than people realise it only constitues 10-15 of all allergies in dogs and 80 percent of dogs with food allergies also have atopic allergies as well. that is allergies fron contact or inhillation like dust and pollen so while people look to food as the first sourse of an allergy it rarely is and given the nature of allergies which is not caused by food but a genetic predisposition why would you feed a limited ingrediet diet with the implications for excess and lack of needed nutrient to a dog that shows no predilection for an allergy I just don't get it/ Sure you need to make accompdation for the allergic dog that is the nature of nutrition when can make generalization based on the general population but what a particular individual need to be optimal is going to be different than the general population This is the problem with most dog food discussion it does not take into account life style difference and such for the individual dog.

Pricey · 01-07-2012, 04:28 PM

So with raw feeding it's not just meat then? It's veggies too? I know so little about it I just thought it was a bit of raw beef mince lol

barneysmom2510 · 01-07-2012, 04:56 PM

The diet I feed only contains meat, bones, and organs I do not believe dogs normally need veggies although I have seen where people have said it has helped alot with certain issues that come up in their dogs.Barf is when you mix mea with veggies and I think some people use seeds.
Barney very happy to know pork shoulder is on sale this week

Everyone knows what kibble looks like here is a pic of a raw boneless meal it contains pork butt and some steak.

Here is Barney trying to g\be a good boy and sit but he does not get why I am holding up dinner to snap a pic.

barneysmom2510 · 01-07-2012, 05:06 PM

This is the style I feed. Except I do not feed things like a whole animal or a head I just cannot handle that so my dogs don't eat fur/ hair but they do get skin.
How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw

01-07-2012, 03:33 PM	#16 (permalink)
Annie714 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 1,219	Annie eats Rotations dog food currently. She rotates through the lamb and the salmon varieties changing flavors roughly every 3 weeks. With her AM kibble she also gets 1/2tsp of Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics and a scoop of canned food. With her PM kibble she gets 1tsp of LifeLine Organic Kelp and a scoop of canned food. Ideally I'd like to feed her a kibble that already has probiotics in it...so I'm a month or two away from switching her kibble. I'm looking at a few options but my top choice thus far is Taste of The Wild. For those who feed TOTW already, can you rotate through their flavors without a lengthy transition period? I can look all the info up myself and usually do, but if anyone knows off-hand that would be cool. __________________ Blog about the antics of Annie and I. http://thechickandthehound.blogspot.com

01-07-2012, 04:56 PM	#19 (permalink)
barneysmom2510 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rockport ma Posts: 633	The diet I feed only contains meat, bones, and organs I do not believe dogs normally need veggies although I have seen where people have said it has helped alot with certain issues that come up in their dogs.Barf is when you mix mea with veggies and I think some people use seeds. Barney very happy to know pork shoulder is on sale this week Everyone knows what kibble looks like here is a pic of a raw boneless meal it contains pork butt and some steak. Here is Barney trying to g\be a good boy and sit but he does not get why I am holding up dinner to snap a pic. __________________ -LISA Mini daschunds Sadie Lou & Daisy dukes Chihuahua Lola Bassett Hound Barney Last edited by barneysmom2510; 01-07-2012 at 05:03 PM.

01-07-2012, 05:06 PM	#20 (permalink)
barneysmom2510 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rockport ma Posts: 633	This is the style I feed. Except I do not feed things like a whole animal or a head I just cannot handle that so my dogs don't eat fur/ hair but they do get skin. How to Get Started \| Prey Model Raw __________________ -LISA Mini daschunds Sadie Lou & Daisy dukes Chihuahua Lola Bassett Hound Barney Last edited by barneysmom2510; 01-07-2012 at 05:08 PM.

01-07-2012, 03:07 PM	#14 (permalink)
Jnfr Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 1,843	I feed Abby Royal Canine LP (low protein). It is a Rx dog food I have to get from the vet. I do this because she has kidney disease and we almost lost her to renal failure when she was about 6 mo. old. However, looking at her today (her size, her energy, her devilish personality) you would never know she had/has any health issues. The special food is supplemented with Azodyl (3 pills a day) and an antacid which serves as a phosphate binder. I have checked out many sites about cooking for pets with kidney disease, but none of them seemed 'credible' enough for me. Not willing to change what is working for something iffy. I would like to learn more about cooking for her dietary needs. All home cooking I see for dogs seem to be really high protein, which won't work for her.

01-07-2012, 03:16 PM	#15 (permalink)
iheartbassets4 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 13	My dog eats beagle mix puppy eats Blue Wilderness Puppy, Bassets eat Taste of the Wild High Prairie rotated with other flavors. I chose this because I could no longer afford raw (meat prices have sky rocketed) and, based on my research, I believe that a grain-free diet is best for my dogs. I would like to learn more about dog nutrition in general... I find it very interesting and don't believe that I can learn too much. Here are some helpful links I have read about: Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble So You Are Confused By Dog Food - Food & Nutrition Forum The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?

01-07-2012, 04:28 PM	#18 (permalink)
Pricey Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 160	So with raw feeding it's not just meat then? It's veggies too? I know so little about it I just thought it was a bit of raw beef mince lol

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