to neuter or not to neuter?

barneysmom2510 · 10-19-2011, 08:40 PM

When I got my females 10 years ago I had them spayed at 6 months. It seems alot of the stuff I have been reading says that the health benefits are not the same with neutering a male. It almost seems like the risks health wise outweigh the positives. I know I have read some posts buy people who know about this. I have not given up the idea to neuter Barney yet but am curious to hear the benefits of either waiting until he is 15 months or not doig it all. I am an extremely responsible owner my whole yard is fenced in I have seen more and more un neutered males out there. I want Barne to also keep the integrity of the breed looks I know early neutering will keep this from happening. aside from the petp population debate I am curious about the benefits of waiting to neuter or not doing it at all.

Mikey T · 10-20-2011, 03:10 PM

we covered this topic extensively in the Spay / Neuter Questiion - When is the best age

general speaking only dealing wih health issue of spaying or leaving inteact the perpoderance of evidence for most dogs end up on the leaving intact side as being the healthier choice but breed and lbreed line predilections for certain disease can change that for individule dogs. there are refference to specific disease etc in the link

Behavioral issue are another often site reason to spay as in preventing them in the first place. In those are that nuetering is knowmn to help roam and marking and intact same sex dog v dog aggression. Studies indication that nuetering before the problem occurs does not have a better succsess rate than nuetering after the problem.

Nuetering before mature is associate with increase hieght 1/4" and more immiature features especial sex organs There are some that belelieve that nuereing in the 5 month to maturity range can esaerbate ot cause angular limb problems in that nuetering delays closure of growth plates and given in the 5-6 month rage some growth plate are already closed nueter during this time and before all the growth plates close can lead to a misalignments that would not have occured if not nuetered. This is not documented just speculation However nuetering before mature is associated with increases in HD, and ACL ruptures. Nueter dogs are more likely to be overweight or orbese than intacted dogs.

There are no compelling health reasons to nueter a dog. The US is one of only a hand full of countries that nuetering of males is routine.

barneysmom2510 · 10-20-2011, 08:16 PM

^^ sorry swhen I searched I must have missed the thread. I will check it out. I had read about the bome plates and it also said the testosterone is what tells the bones to stop growing. When you neuter to young this signal does not happen which causes the bones to keep growing which causes the dog to continue to grow. I know my brother's breeder said to wait until 8 months to neuter his frenchie. I was only worried about marking in the house. I would think the risk for higher aggression would depend on the dog but maybe they change when they hit puberty I don't know. !6 years ago I neutered my chihuahua ad he still lifted his leg and marked everywhere when we walked and he was neutered at 6 months. I have a femal dachshund who was spayed at 6 months and she lifts her legs and marks .

Mikey T · 10-20-2011, 09:13 PM

Quote:

it also said the testosterone is what tells the bones to stop growing.

sex hormones not testosterone per say spaying has the same effect on females

agrression difference between nueter and unueter dogs is confined to intact same sex dog v dog aggression spay affter the fact is just as effective.

Same for marking nuetering before marking begins is no mor effect in preventing marking as nuetering after marking the one advantage of course is you do not have to deal with pea in the house. That said nuetering is not a q00 cure for marking nore does it prevent marking 100%

Leftting the leg to scent mark has abosulutely nothing to do with when or how early the dog was spayed or nueter/ Of course more males do it than females it is not exclusively males that lift their leg. There is some thought the leg lifting is learned by observing other dogs.

Contratary to what you read there is actual very little know about why dog scent mark and the whole marking there teriitory is pretty much bs because dog do not have a territory it has been sound in some studies the dogs tend to acutal mark more when oustide there normal area which dispels the marking territory but more as a "kilroy was here" make to let other dogs know. Males tend to over mark mouch more frequently than females which tend to ajacent mark more. Mariah out marks most males in terms of number of stops etc but she alway ajacent marks she marks with her nose embeded in the other dogs mark and makes her mark one body length a way

Scent marking in dogs

Quote:

She looked at the literature and was stunned to discover how little research has actually been done on it. Dr. Ian Dunbar did work years ago on scent marking, and found that females did little marking and showed little interest in the urine of others–at least compared to males. However, this work was on beagles who were familiar and housed together.

...she found that females indeed spent a lot of time investigating the urine of unfamiliar dogs (we are not surprised, are we!), that males investigated the urine of unfamiliar males most, while females were interested in urine from both sexes.
Individuals with the highest base of the tail position (more on that later) spent the least time sniffing the scents, while those with low tail positions spent the most time (risk assessment?). However, dogs with the highest tail base position (which correlated with the dogs most likely to get a tossed food-stuffed toy in a group of dogs) did the most overmarking, or urinating directly over the urine of another dog. In her study, females never overmarked, they did what she terms “adjacent marked” or urinated directly after sniffing the urine of others, but a good 4 to 5 feet away. I’ll tell you more next post about another one of her studies that suggests that ‘overmarking’ and ‘adjacent marking’ are different responses based on different motivations

scent marking dogs part II

The Power of Pee

Urinary behavior of female domestic dogs (Canis familiaris): influence of reproductive status, location,
and age

The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behavior

Quote:

Ben and Hart at the University of California carried out one of the most extensive surveys on the effects of gonadectomy on dogs, finding that at least in intermale aggression, aggression was reduced by neutering in 60% of cases with rapid reduction in 25%, and gradual reduction in 35% (Fogle, 1990, p. 53). Neilson, Eckstein, and Hart, (1997) found that approximately 25% of adult dogs that were aggressive toward humans or other dogs in the household can be expected to have a 50 to 90% level of improvement after gonadectomy. A 50 - 90% level of improvement can likewise be observed in 10 to 15% of dogs that are aggressive toward unfamiliar people or human territorial intruders after gonadectomy. Neilson et al. also found that neither the age at which the gonadectomy was performed or the duration the problem behavior existed for affected the behavior after gonadectomy. Hart and Eckstein (1997]

... Neutering cannot be expected to reduce aggressive behavior in all dogs
·Neutering will not always completely eliminate aggressive behaviors
·When the neutering is carried out cannot be expected to influence the rate or magnitude of changes in behaviors
·How long the problem behavior has existed does not tend to affect the level or trend of change in behavior after neutering
·If an intact dog demonstrates aggressive behavior neutering should be considered as an adjunct to other behavior modification practices
·Early neutering is probably not helpful at preventing aggression and may pose certain medical risks.

Hickory · 10-20-2011, 09:32 PM

Hickory is about 8 months, and I just scheduled him for Saturday for his pre-neutering exam. When people say to wait a bit, is 8 months still too early? He gets very crazy and aggressive when he plays, and we are thinking that this may ease that a bit.

henry'smum · 10-20-2011, 10:12 PM

Henry was done very early,we had terrible problems in the past with dogs we left late and the vet and i discussed benefit, risk ratio. For us it was the best thing to do. Surgery caused no issues and Henry recovered in a matter of days. He is a happy healthy hound and for us it ws definatly the right decision

henry'smum · 10-20-2011, 10:14 PM

FYI by very early i mean 16 weeks

barneysmom2510 · 10-21-2011, 09:16 AM

^^ That is very early. The marking in the house would be the big problem I would be concerned with. I am not sure if not being neutered would cause a house broken dog to start marking in the house. I could care less about outside my female doxie daisy pees on top of everyone else's pee in the house in the yard. My other female sadie if daisy has an accident in the house she will go pee on it and that is the only time she would have an accident in the house. I do think my female learned to lift her leg from pepe my chihuahua when she was a puppy.
I know my brother's french bulldog breeder told him to wait to neuter that is the first time I had heard of this. My girlfried has an unneutered 7 month old border terrier she shows he does not go in the house neither. He did try to mount Barney but Barney took him right down with his mouth on his neck and held him there he was not being aggressive but seemed to be showing dominance over her dog.

barneysmom2510 · 10-21-2011, 09:20 AM

I live in mass and around here owners of un neutered dogs are not looked upon favorably. I know it bothers me when I see it `sometimes. I saw a woman go into petco with and un neutered bull terrier he was pretty aggressive with other dogs. You could clearly see she had no control over this very muscular dog. If he wanted he could have just bolted. I don't see to many intact males. Pet population is a huge issue around here. I am very responsible I have doxies who in their younger years would bolt and run wild everywhere they would smell so many great smells. I always ahd a fenced in yard and never left them outside if I was not around so Barney would not be breaking out to impregnate any females. I do wonder how he would act in public around a bunch of other dogs there are countless dogs in rockport that are always out down town. There is also no leash law but people do not let their dogs roam around here. If I let him run the beach would he probably try to mathe with a female if she was intact

Mikey T · 10-21-2011, 11:37 AM

Quote:

When people say to wait a bit, is 8 months still too early? He gets very crazy and aggressive when he plays, and we are thinking that this may ease that a bit.

the cause is that puppy crazieness is a lack of self control not aggressivness and studies have not shown any of this type of aggressiveness being effective by nuetering.

Quote:

Pet population is a huge issue around here

If that were actual true you would not have animal shelter/rescues like north shore animal league importing rabid dogs from foriegn countries simply to have dogs to adopt because of there "anti breeding" agenda they feel this is superior than getting a dog from a responsibile breeder. As for there antibreedign agenda i con to lissen to this crap at the first and last fundrasing event I attend for them back in early 2000's

Major advances in regulating animal relocation and importation into US shelters
[quote]In 2004 it became apparent that the humane relocation disease time bomb was going off. In July of 2004, a rabid puppy from the Save-A-Sato Puerto Rico stray operation was imported into the Massachusetts shelter system (3). This rabid puppy had a strain of canine rabies endemic to Puerto Rico and found in the mongoose. The CDC tightened its rabies vaccination regulations (4) because the introduction of a new strain of rabies to the region would pose significant health risks to local domesticated animal populations as well as to people. Then in November, 2004, a dog from Mexico became the first case of canine rabies in Los Angeles in 30 years (5) once again focusing attention on the public health threat posed by dog importation.
[/url]
Pet overpopulation is not a problem in the US it may have been at one time it is no longer but it is Continued to be shouted from the roof tops because of the fundraising aspects for antibreeding animal rights orgaization like HSUS and even the ASPCA. When the are two of the major contributors to shelter euthanasia in the US Tha a look at Nathan Winogrard blog and website for more details on this. That said nueter males have a best a very limited effect on pet overpopulation males simply do not give birth.

Quote:

If I let him run the beach would he probably try to mathe with a female if she was intact

\no unless she were intact in heat and ready to ovulate. then one has to wonder where the responsibility lies and that would be squarly on the shoulders of the owner of the female. again mointing behavior is not the exclusive domain of intacted male it has not been shown nuetering early decrease the behavior. if you look at the articles above on the effect of testosterone it is clear it has prenatal effect in the woomb. Mounting is an FAp performed by both males and females had likely has little to do with dominance either.
Oh behave: Love and mounting
[quote]
Let’s begin at the beginning. Fixed action patterns, or FAPs, are important behaviours that are pre-installed in animals, kind of like bundled software that comes with a computer. Fixed action patterns require no learning and are triggered by something in the environment. A classic example is a moving bit of string that triggers a six-week-old kitten to pounce. The pouncing sequence is stereotyped across all cats. Another example is how a cat will turn sideways, arch his back, puff up and hiss. This is a self-defense FAP, again common to all cats and stereotyped.[/url]

Quote:

I saw a woman go into petco with and un neutered bull terrier he was pretty aggressive with other dogs.

do you really thing the behavior of the dog would have been any different if it were nuetered. You will see a number of statistc by HSUS and other claiming things like 87% of dog bites are from unnuetered males which simply it total missrepresentation of studies to the point of rediculiousness.
stuff like "A study by Beck done in 1975 indicated that 87% of biting dogs are intact males "
[ur=http://www.pitbulletinlegalnews.com/images/science/missouridogbite.pdf]The Ecology of Dog Bites in Saint Lewis[/url] AlanBeck et. al

Quote:

Male dogs account for 70% of bites

all males no numbers for intact vs nuetered.

Dog bite law at least in the area of early studies of dog bite they get it right on chaining studies they decidsed to pick and choose to cherry pick the studies and the one with serrious flaw which led to the chaining conclusion but that said

Quote:

Male dogs are more aggressive than females, and most of the aggression is by intact males. Male dogs accounted for 70% - 87% of the attacks studied, and 60% were unneutered males.

so in reallity less than 1/2 of dog bite were from intacted males but that does boes not make for good headlines. Secondly they do not put the Nuetered unnuetered in context with the er. Most of the dog bites were from roaming dogs, less than 30% had rabbies shots. Irresponsible onwner de not nueter ther dogs Responsible owners that confined their dog liciensed the dog and got the required shots when they were less likely to bite. so the question of nuetering vs unnuetered also is not controled for linving situation of the dog so unnuetered males are an over reprepesented in the sample not necessaruly that intacted dogs are more likely to bite but because the environmental factors that lead to dog bites and owner that exaserbate them are more likely not to nueter their dogs. It may exist out there but I have not seen a study that controls for this . Mostly because I think it does not fit the agenda of those funding such studies to do so.

I am not say you should not nueter. There are a lot of factors involed besides health. Norman's dad decided on an economic basis lower insurance and licensing fees there are ligetimate reason for leaving intacted or nuetering I am just trying to help in sperperating the truth from the propiganda and much whach people hoild as stead fastly true is in reality propiganda repeated so many times by different sources that it appears that it must be true.

10-19-2011, 08:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
barneysmom2510 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rockport ma Posts: 633	to neuter or not to neuter? When I got my females 10 years ago I had them spayed at 6 months. It seems alot of the stuff I have been reading says that the health benefits are not the same with neutering a male. It almost seems like the risks health wise outweigh the positives. I know I have read some posts buy people who know about this. I have not given up the idea to neuter Barney yet but am curious to hear the benefits of either waiting until he is 15 months or not doig it all. I am an extremely responsible owner my whole yard is fenced in I have seen more and more un neutered males out there. I want Barne to also keep the integrity of the breed looks I know early neutering will keep this from happening. aside from the petp population debate I am curious about the benefits of waiting to neuter or not doing it at all. __________________ -LISA Mini daschunds Sadie Lou & Daisy dukes Chihuahua Lola Bassett Hound Barney

10-20-2011, 08:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
barneysmom2510 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rockport ma Posts: 633	^^ sorry swhen I searched I must have missed the thread. I will check it out. I had read about the bome plates and it also said the testosterone is what tells the bones to stop growing. When you neuter to young this signal does not happen which causes the bones to keep growing which causes the dog to continue to grow. I know my brother's breeder said to wait until 8 months to neuter his frenchie. I was only worried about marking in the house. I would think the risk for higher aggression would depend on the dog but maybe they change when they hit puberty I don't know. !6 years ago I neutered my chihuahua ad he still lifted his leg and marked everywhere when we walked and he was neutered at 6 months. I have a femal dachshund who was spayed at 6 months and she lifts her legs and marks . __________________ -LISA Mini daschunds Sadie Lou & Daisy dukes Chihuahua Lola Bassett Hound Barney

10-21-2011, 09:16 AM	#8 (permalink)
barneysmom2510 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rockport ma Posts: 633	^^ That is very early. The marking in the house would be the big problem I would be concerned with. I am not sure if not being neutered would cause a house broken dog to start marking in the house. I could care less about outside my female doxie daisy pees on top of everyone else's pee in the house in the yard. My other female sadie if daisy has an accident in the house she will go pee on it and that is the only time she would have an accident in the house. I do think my female learned to lift her leg from pepe my chihuahua when she was a puppy. I know my brother's french bulldog breeder told him to wait to neuter that is the first time I had heard of this. My girlfried has an unneutered 7 month old border terrier she shows he does not go in the house neither. He did try to mount Barney but Barney took him right down with his mouth on his neck and held him there he was not being aggressive but seemed to be showing dominance over her dog. __________________ -LISA Mini daschunds Sadie Lou & Daisy dukes Chihuahua Lola Bassett Hound Barney Last edited by barneysmom2510; 10-21-2011 at 09:18 AM.

10-21-2011, 09:20 AM	#9 (permalink)
barneysmom2510 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rockport ma Posts: 633	I live in mass and around here owners of un neutered dogs are not looked upon favorably. I know it bothers me when I see it `sometimes. I saw a woman go into petco with and un neutered bull terrier he was pretty aggressive with other dogs. You could clearly see she had no control over this very muscular dog. If he wanted he could have just bolted. I don't see to many intact males. Pet population is a huge issue around here. I am very responsible I have doxies who in their younger years would bolt and run wild everywhere they would smell so many great smells. I always ahd a fenced in yard and never left them outside if I was not around so Barney would not be breaking out to impregnate any females. I do wonder how he would act in public around a bunch of other dogs there are countless dogs in rockport that are always out down town. There is also no leash law but people do not let their dogs roam around here. If I let him run the beach would he probably try to mathe with a female if she was intact __________________ -LISA Mini daschunds Sadie Lou & Daisy dukes Chihuahua Lola Bassett Hound Barney Last edited by barneysmom2510; 10-21-2011 at 09:25 AM.

10-20-2011, 03:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mikey T Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: West Warrwick, RI Posts: 7,729	we covered this topic extensively in the Spay / Neuter Questiion - When is the best age general speaking only dealing wih health issue of spaying or leaving inteact the perpoderance of evidence for most dogs end up on the leaving intact side as being the healthier choice but breed and lbreed line predilections for certain disease can change that for individule dogs. there are refference to specific disease etc in the link Behavioral issue are another often site reason to spay as in preventing them in the first place. In those are that nuetering is knowmn to help roam and marking and intact same sex dog v dog aggression. Studies indication that nuetering before the problem occurs does not have a better succsess rate than nuetering after the problem. Nuetering before mature is associate with increase hieght 1/4" and more immiature features especial sex organs There are some that belelieve that nuereing in the 5 month to maturity range can esaerbate ot cause angular limb problems in that nuetering delays closure of growth plates and given in the 5-6 month rage some growth plate are already closed nueter during this time and before all the growth plates close can lead to a misalignments that would not have occured if not nuetered. This is not documented just speculation However nuetering before mature is associated with increases in HD, and ACL ruptures. Nueter dogs are more likely to be overweight or orbese than intacted dogs. There are no compelling health reasons to nueter a dog. The US is one of only a hand full of countries that nuetering of males is routine.

10-20-2011, 09:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
Hickory Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 48	Hickory is about 8 months, and I just scheduled him for Saturday for his pre-neutering exam. When people say to wait a bit, is 8 months still too early? He gets very crazy and aggressive when he plays, and we are thinking that this may ease that a bit.

10-20-2011, 10:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
henry'smum Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: arkansas Posts: 686	Henry was done very early,we had terrible problems in the past with dogs we left late and the vet and i discussed benefit, risk ratio. For us it was the best thing to do. Surgery caused no issues and Henry recovered in a matter of days. He is a happy healthy hound and for us it ws definatly the right decision

10-20-2011, 10:14 PM	#7 (permalink)
henry'smum Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: arkansas Posts: 686	FYI by very early i mean 16 weeks

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