Puppy crazies or aggression to worry about?

MaggieMaysMom · 06-24-2011, 06:44 PM

We are a week into our new adventure with Maggie today. Thankfully, she came to us with the general understanding to potty outside. We have had a few accidents but that was more from us not getting her cues.

Our biggest concern is how playtime seems to disintegrate into ultra boisterousness to the point of barking and growling with teeth bared. We have a 15 yr old daughter that handles her pretty well and will disengage (walk away) when she goes overboard. But her behavior is intimidating to her and also to our 8 year old son. I find this particularly heart breaking because the kids were the reason we adopted her, after they had begged for a dog for years. My son at this point is spending most of his free time in his room with the door closed to just not deal with her at all.

We don't have a fenced yard but we do take her out to play two to three times a day on a 30ft tether. She loves to chase toys so we throw them back and forth to try and tire her out. We also go for walks at least twice a day besides the sniff fests that potty trips turn in to.

I am at a loss here. There has to be more she is needing than to be tired out, but I don't know what. She has also started humping her bed in the past two days, dragging it all over the house, growling and wrestling with it.

Ideas?
Thanks!
Stevie

Cassidy · 06-24-2011, 07:42 PM

Hi Stevie!

I don't know a whole lot and I'm hoping someone else pipes in here to give some feedback. Sounds like puppy crazies to me, but making sure it doesn't turn into aggression as an adult is the challenge.

We had a lot of energy to deal with in the beginning with Fergus. I think it can be remedied this early with her, but it's hard to say if she's extra active because of her pointer side. We did take a training class, which may help with holding her attention and wearing her out. She's old enough now. We really ramped up the walks and it still wasn't enough some days.

The other thing we did after some advice here and from the class we took was creating a "time out" strategy. When he got too worked up (which still happens occasionally and we're at 16 months now), he goes to time out. Either a crate or his "room" for a few minutes. They say you should really time it so that she knows what has happened and not long enough that she forgets why she's there. We work in a 5-15 minute range. Some days this was repeated over and over again. Sometimes he would just go in there and fall asleep right away.

More good info here: Dog Training Article: Using a Time Out to Discourage Your Dog's Misbehavior

Good luck!!

Soundtrack · 06-24-2011, 09:08 PM

You don't say how old she is, but she sounds like a normal puppy to me. It would probably be a good idea to enroll in obedience classes to learn how to bring her energy under control.

SophieB · 06-25-2011, 03:55 PM

Sounds like normal puppy behaviour to me and if Maggie had a puppy or doggy friend to play with, the two of them would enjoy a nice bit of rough and tumble play (like our two litter sisters have always done)I'm sure that Maggie isn't aggressive, she just wants to play!

MaggieMaysMom · 06-25-2011, 06:55 PM

Thanks for the help. This morning she went overboard and nipped at me, growling with teeth bared trying to get to my shoelaces while I was tying my shoes. This got her an immediate firm No! and a 5 min time out in her crate.

This evening when playtime started getting heated, we leashed up and went for a 45 minute walk/sniff fest. Which resulted in a pooped puppy nap.

We're just going to take it a day at a time!

ETA: I tried to insert a flickr photo of her napping but it doesn't seem to work. How does one insert images here?

Soundtrack · 06-25-2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaggieMaysMom

ETA: I tried to insert a flickr photo of her napping but it doesn't seem to work. How does one insert images here?

001 by psychestevie, on Flickr

For most photos, if you look at the icons at the top of the reply box, there is one for photos (if you hover your cursor over it, the words "insert image" will appear). It's right below the undo arrow. Click that and a box will come up, put the photo's url in the box, click OK and it should appear.

However, in the case of Flickr photos it appears you need to follow a different process. I went to the page your picture was on, clicked on it for the large size. On top of the photo is a set of icons for sharing (email, facebook and twitter) plus an arrow for more sharing options. When I clicked that, there is the option to "Grab the link" or "Grab the HTML/BB Code. Click on the HTML/BB Code arrow and select BB Code. Then copy the code and paste it into your post.

MaggieMaysMom · 06-25-2011, 07:26 PM

A ha! Thank you!

Wworm · 06-26-2011, 02:13 AM

Hi Maggie May's Mom,

First of all-- Welcome! (Worm says your gal is cute and he likes to lie on his bed that way too... [but warning, Worm is a flirt]...)

Somehow, I don't like the "intimidating," son staying in his room to avoid her, and "overboard," in you posts. And I know some will disagree here, but I personally don't like "growling" and "teeth bared" and "nipping either." Re: the latter, my old dog did none of that except occasional teeth baring, but Worm did all of them initially, just a little, and we were able to get him to stop and haven't had problems since. He's now very civil at 11 months.

I'm saying this because you've got the kids and want it to be a good experience for them, and it sounds like you'd like for it to work out w/Maggie May if possible-- to me, if you have the means, I would consider hiring a behaviorist for 2-3 private sessions, so he/she can observe the issues and give you their opinion about what to do. Private sessions are good so that all the attention can be on her. I believe this would be the fastest way to get to a good result... not the cheapest, but the fastest.

I think classes are good (Worm has been doing them for the past 3 months), but the downsides for your situation are: you only meet once/week, your teacher has an agenda so may not get to your specific problem in a session, and the trainer's attention is divided among the participants.

At 6 months, chances are she is trainable, and she needs to learn some bite inhibition. A behaviorist can help you get on top of the behavior problems quickly, and also be able to tell you what's just normal puppy behavior, too. This is probably safest for your children, too. Have not been on the forum long, but have read the stories where behavior problems escalate, leading to some bite that results in the dog being turned in. If you are able, I would say it's best to address the problems ASAP and nip them in the bud...!

Agree w/Fergus-- timeouts are good, and Worm gets them when he's misbehaving in his teacher's playgroup (ie. barking at other dogs too much... way too much...)

Please keep us posted...!

ps. we put Worm in daycare 1x/week-- he gets SUPER tired from playing w/all the dogs there all morning and afternoon. it's a good option if available. plus he might continue to learn from other dogs (including bite inhibition, maybe...) while there. "a tired dog is a good dog," so true. Worm is the cutest thing tonight simply because he went to daycare today and is pooped. he's so tired that he won't even type on this forum tonite... (that's pretty tired...!)

MaggieMaysMom · 06-26-2011, 01:03 PM

Thanks Wworm! It's the tone of the growl and the teeth thing that bothers me too. I grew up with dogs, all ages and sizes. It has been a long time since we owned one. But it seems like I can "feel" when things get overheated.
Late last night when we came in from our last potty break/ sniff fest, she had some energy to burn off. She chased a ball for a while but when she lost interest she got aggressive towards me. She growled and barked, I shushed her and when she did it again, I forced her into a down with my hand on her neck. I used a calm assertive voice and told her to calm down several times.
This seemed to break the energy, and she walked away calmly.
We are trying to be consistent with stopping the behavior as soon as it starts.

Mikey T · 06-27-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

She growled and barked, I shushed her and when she did it again, I forced her into a down with my hand on her neck. I used a calm assertive voice and told her to calm down several times

no need to use physical force doing so with some dog will actual amp up the behavior. It also teaches them that physical force is ok. Simply ignoring the dog turn your back etc while remain calm general works a would not talk to her as this is interaction as well. What I do is switch between games like tug and petting the dog if when I move slowly to pet the dog and it mover to play/bite hand I withdraw and wait some more before engaging again. This becomes an important exercise in self control for the dog.

I assume part of the problem is the puppy is nipping as well. Keep in mind at this stage you do not want to end the game with any mouthing but rather only end games when the dog bites hard. It is critcal to teach the dog to have a soft mouth and the window of oppurtunity for doing this is limit and only when they are a puppies. Any training when they get older in this area is unreliable, but the training as a puppy lasts a lifetime. Teaching bite inibition is the single most important thing to teach a dog.

Bite Inhibition - How to Teach It

Quote:

Rather than "No bite," I strongly, strongly, strongly urge you to teach your puppy bite inhibition instead. Bite inhibition is a "soft mouth." It teaches the pup how to use his mouth gently. Does this mean that the pup will forever be mouthing you? No, not at all. Actually, regardless of the method used, puppies generally grow out of mouthing behavior after a few months.
So why should you teach bite inhibition? Because dogs have one defense: their teeth. Every dog can bite. If frightened enough or in pain or threatened, your dog *will* bite. That doesn't in any way make him a "bad" dog. It makes him a dog. It's your responsibility, therefore, to teach your dog that human skin is incredibly fragile. If you teach your dog bite inhibition that training will carry over even if he is later in a position where he feels forced to bite.

Biting Pant Legs & Ankles

Quote:

we leashed up and went for a 45 minute walk/sniff fest. Which resulted in a pooped puppy nap.

works ok for a young pup but very quickly as they grow a simple walk and sniff fest will not result in a tired puppy it really in not that much exercise. Fetch is good exercise if you have one of the rare bassets that retrieve. I also like Tug

Tug of War

Quote:

Dog owners have been admonished for decades to never play tug of war with their dogs because of the risk of it increasing aggression and/or dominance in the dog. Even many dog resource people such as breeders, trainers and veterinarians caution against this game. This is partly a failure to discriminate between agonistic behavior (conflict resolution & defensive aggression) and predatory behavior. Also, many people have issues about witnessing intensity. Intensity is not aggression, however.

Played with rules, tug-of-war is a tremendous predatory energy burner and good exercise for both dog and owner. It serves as a barometer of the kind of control you have over the dog, most importantly over his jaws. The game doesn't make the dog a predator: he already is one.

The game is an outlet. It’s intense, increases dog focus and confidence and plugs into something very deep inside them. The big payoff is in lowered incidence of behavior problems due to understimulation and a potent motivator for snappy obedience. There is a maxim in training: control the games, control the dog. It's also extremely efficient in terms of space and time requirements

from the same link above an Atticle by Ian Dunbar "PLAY-FIGHTING, TAG & TUG O' WAR "

Quote:

No topic engenders such a wide range of conflicting advice than whether or not it is advisable to play physical-contact games with dogs, e.g., play-fighting, tag and tug o' war.

Quote:

...fact; customarily, game playing builds confidence and handleability and promotes friendliness. Perhaps the so-called increase in aggressiveness would be better termed excessive rambunctiousness - play-chasing, play-growling, play-mouthing and play-fighting, i.e.,

...
Firstly that dogs, especially adolescent dogs, are going to attempt to play this way with people anyway. In fact, much of a dog's waking existence and certainly most of his playtime focus on mouthing (and/or biting) objects both inert and alive. Consequently, it makes sense to take time to teach the critter rules. And secondly, that many owners, especially men and children and extra-especially boys (ranging in age from two to fifty-two years old), are going to play these games with dogs anyway. And so, it similarly make sense to teach owners how to be better canine coaches, so they may correctly referee Rover and reap the many benefits these games have to offer.

Quote:

We are trying to be consistent with stopping the behavior as soon as it starts

that is a good start and consistentcy is important but I would look toward playing in such cases in shorter spurts with calm time in between so the behavior never esculates to that point in the first place.

06-24-2011, 06:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
MaggieMaysMom Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Covington, GA Posts: 78	Puppy crazies or aggression to worry about? We are a week into our new adventure with Maggie today. Thankfully, she came to us with the general understanding to potty outside. We have had a few accidents but that was more from us not getting her cues. Our biggest concern is how playtime seems to disintegrate into ultra boisterousness to the point of barking and growling with teeth bared. We have a 15 yr old daughter that handles her pretty well and will disengage (walk away) when she goes overboard. But her behavior is intimidating to her and also to our 8 year old son. I find this particularly heart breaking because the kids were the reason we adopted her, after they had begged for a dog for years. My son at this point is spending most of his free time in his room with the door closed to just not deal with her at all. We don't have a fenced yard but we do take her out to play two to three times a day on a 30ft tether. She loves to chase toys so we throw them back and forth to try and tire her out. We also go for walks at least twice a day besides the sniff fests that potty trips turn in to. I am at a loss here. There has to be more she is needing than to be tired out, but I don't know what. She has also started humping her bed in the past two days, dragging it all over the house, growling and wrestling with it. Ideas? Thanks! Stevie __________________ ~Maggie May b. Jan 2011~ 1/2 basset 1/2 pointer 1 whole love bug

06-24-2011, 07:42 PM	#2 (permalink)
Cassidy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 165	Hi Stevie! I don't know a whole lot and I'm hoping someone else pipes in here to give some feedback. Sounds like puppy crazies to me, but making sure it doesn't turn into aggression as an adult is the challenge. We had a lot of energy to deal with in the beginning with Fergus. I think it can be remedied this early with her, but it's hard to say if she's extra active because of her pointer side. We did take a training class, which may help with holding her attention and wearing her out. She's old enough now. We really ramped up the walks and it still wasn't enough some days. The other thing we did after some advice here and from the class we took was creating a "time out" strategy. When he got too worked up (which still happens occasionally and we're at 16 months now), he goes to time out. Either a crate or his "room" for a few minutes. They say you should really time it so that she knows what has happened and not long enough that she forgets why she's there. We work in a 5-15 minute range. Some days this was repeated over and over again. Sometimes he would just go in there and fall asleep right away. More good info here: Dog Training Article: Using a Time Out to Discourage Your Dog's Misbehavior Good luck!! __________________ Mom to Fergus aka Ferg-a-licious- a spunky, eats-everything boy.

06-24-2011, 09:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
Soundtrack Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,581	You don't say how old she is, but she sounds like a normal puppy to me. It would probably be a good idea to enroll in obedience classes to learn how to bring her energy under control. __________________ Rosie-Ch Soundtrack Cracklin' Rose CGN AGN RA Am RN TT Melody-Ch Soundtrack Unchained Melody TT Sailor-Ch Soundtrack Expedition Sailor RN TT Chili-Ch Soundtrack Spice Up Your Life Curry-Ch Soundtrack Canadian Brass Pepper-Ch Pennieslogon Living La Vida Loca CGN Vina-Ch Soundtrack Grand Illusion Leila-Ch Soundtrack Almost Paradise Deela-Ch Soundtrack Wink Of An Eye Hermione - Soundtrack Spellbound Eowyn - Soundtrack Rain Dance

06-25-2011, 06:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
MaggieMaysMom Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Covington, GA Posts: 78	Thanks for the help. This morning she went overboard and nipped at me, growling with teeth bared trying to get to my shoelaces while I was tying my shoes. This got her an immediate firm No! and a 5 min time out in her crate. This evening when playtime started getting heated, we leashed up and went for a 45 minute walk/sniff fest. Which resulted in a pooped puppy nap. We're just going to take it a day at a time! ETA: I tried to insert a flickr photo of her napping but it doesn't seem to work. How does one insert images here? __________________ ~Maggie May b. Jan 2011~ 1/2 basset 1/2 pointer 1 whole love bug

06-25-2011, 07:26 PM	#7 (permalink)
MaggieMaysMom Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Covington, GA Posts: 78	A ha! Thank you! __________________ ~Maggie May b. Jan 2011~ 1/2 basset 1/2 pointer 1 whole love bug

06-25-2011, 03:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
SophieB Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 839	Sounds like normal puppy behaviour to me and if Maggie had a puppy or doggy friend to play with, the two of them would enjoy a nice bit of rough and tumble play (like our two litter sisters have always done)I'm sure that Maggie isn't aggressive, she just wants to play!

06-26-2011, 02:13 AM	#8 (permalink)
Wworm Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Left Coast Posts: 1,970	Hi Maggie May's Mom, First of all-- Welcome! (Worm says your gal is cute and he likes to lie on his bed that way too... [but warning, Worm is a flirt]...) Somehow, I don't like the "intimidating," son staying in his room to avoid her, and "overboard," in you posts. And I know some will disagree here, but I personally don't like "growling" and "teeth bared" and "nipping either." Re: the latter, my old dog did none of that except occasional teeth baring, but Worm did all of them initially, just a little, and we were able to get him to stop and haven't had problems since. He's now very civil at 11 months. I'm saying this because you've got the kids and want it to be a good experience for them, and it sounds like you'd like for it to work out w/Maggie May if possible-- to me, if you have the means, I would consider hiring a behaviorist for 2-3 private sessions, so he/she can observe the issues and give you their opinion about what to do. Private sessions are good so that all the attention can be on her. I believe this would be the fastest way to get to a good result... not the cheapest, but the fastest. I think classes are good (Worm has been doing them for the past 3 months), but the downsides for your situation are: you only meet once/week, your teacher has an agenda so may not get to your specific problem in a session, and the trainer's attention is divided among the participants. At 6 months, chances are she is trainable, and she needs to learn some bite inhibition. A behaviorist can help you get on top of the behavior problems quickly, and also be able to tell you what's just normal puppy behavior, too. This is probably safest for your children, too. Have not been on the forum long, but have read the stories where behavior problems escalate, leading to some bite that results in the dog being turned in. If you are able, I would say it's best to address the problems ASAP and nip them in the bud...! Agree w/Fergus-- timeouts are good, and Worm gets them when he's misbehaving in his teacher's playgroup (ie. barking at other dogs too much... way too much...) Please keep us posted...! ps. we put Worm in daycare 1x/week-- he gets SUPER tired from playing w/all the dogs there all morning and afternoon. it's a good option if available. plus he might continue to learn from other dogs (including bite inhibition, maybe...) while there. "a tired dog is a good dog," so true. Worm is the cutest thing tonight simply because he went to daycare today and is pooped. he's so tired that he won't even type on this forum tonite... (that's pretty tired...!) Last edited by Wworm; 06-26-2011 at 02:31 AM.

06-26-2011, 01:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
MaggieMaysMom Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Covington, GA Posts: 78	Thanks Wworm! It's the tone of the growl and the teeth thing that bothers me too. I grew up with dogs, all ages and sizes. It has been a long time since we owned one. But it seems like I can "feel" when things get overheated. Late last night when we came in from our last potty break/ sniff fest, she had some energy to burn off. She chased a ball for a while but when she lost interest she got aggressive towards me. She growled and barked, I shushed her and when she did it again, I forced her into a down with my hand on her neck. I used a calm assertive voice and told her to calm down several times. This seemed to break the energy, and she walked away calmly. We are trying to be consistent with stopping the behavior as soon as it starts. __________________ ~Maggie May b. Jan 2011~ 1/2 basset 1/2 pointer 1 whole love bug

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