Behavior Advice badly needed for badly behaved Bassett

suzieq/carlton2 · 09-06-2010, 04:38 AM

I was late to church this morning after spending 30 minutes chasing my 3 y/o Basset Carlton around our yard and adjacent woods.

He is always on the leash outside but managed to scamper out the door as I was closing it. He is very mischevious and sees everything as a game. We are dealing with not coming when called, counter cruising, disruptive barking, and other attention seeking behavior. (which I don't understand because he lives in the house and sleeps with my husband/me) He does know sit, down, and rolls over for treats only. He is house and crate trained. Stay is beyond his comprehension. I was raised with dogs and have trained many over the years but none like this.

Emma and Doris · 09-06-2010, 05:47 AM

The American Kennel Club ranks dogs in 10 categories after how easy they can learn and repeat orders.
German shepherd, Riesenschnauzer, Rottweiler, Doberman etc are in the first group.
Guess who's in the 10th group?

Steinar, Emma and Doris.

SophieB · 09-06-2010, 07:22 AM

Welcome to the world of The Basset Hound! We've had many over the years and they've almost all been like Carlton!

MollyMcFrecklesMom · 09-06-2010, 09:05 AM

Day # 3 here at home with Molly and she's showing that basset trait. Most of the time she comes to me, but when there is something more interesting, forget it. I am seeing a few things in her behavior that make me think that puppy obedience classes might not be a bad idea. Get her while she's young and make both our lives easier.

Mikey T · 09-06-2010, 01:52 PM

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Molly and she's showing that basset trait. Most of the time she comes to me, but when there is something more interesting, forget it.

FWIW this is not a basset trait but a dog trait. All dogs not just basset do this. they make a calculation on whether listening to mom or following the distraction is in their best interest. For those So called easy to train dogs they have a high level of bidability. That is the find doing what some one asks rewarding the ones on the bottom not so much. The secret to training the one on the bottom is creating a level/expectation that when they comply with a request there is a reward for doing so. That is you need to make it in their best interest to listen.

Quote:

The American Kennel Club ranks dogs in 10 categories after how easy they can learn and repeat orders.
German shepherd, Riesenschnauzer, Rottweiler, Doberman etc are in the first group.
Guess who's in the 10th group?

actual the ranking was done by Stanely Coren in his book " The Intelligence of Dogs" but that ranking is severly flawed and base on the opinions of AKC Obedience Judges and has nothing in reality with facts on how easy or difficult to train the dog was. It has more to do with personality traits of the dog and how the perform on stage/ring. Heather Nadelman had a wonderful treates on this in "Front and Finish" in her "Media Hound" colloum . Heather is the former owner of this site and owns both Border Collies and Basset hounds.
Media Hound, Front and Finish: July 1994

Quote:

Coren's analysis of working or obedience intelligence is by far the weakest link in his book. In attempting to rank the various breeds in terms of working intelligence, Coren found no laboratory research at all,

...Unfortunately, the methodology underlying Coren's conclusions is extremely faulty. All Coren has managed to do is to obtain a rough list of the success of various breeds in the sport of dog obedience in North America; jumping from that to the number of repetitions it took the various dogs to learn commands is impossible. We can even use Coren himself to challenge his own methodology. In his analysis of adaptive intelligence, Coren includes an interesting canine IQ test. The "CIQ" consists of twelve separate tests, designed to assess the dog's learning and problem-solving ability. I tested two dogs: Connie, my own basset hound (a breed ranked in the bottom tier of intelligence) and Dream, a border collie (a member of the top echelon). The results were interesting. Connie scored in the "brilliant" category, a group that fewer than five percent of the dogs in Coren's standardization group reached (no, I didn't skew the results!). Dream, on the other hand, scored in the low average range of intelligence, where, according to Coren, a dog will need to work rather hard to understand what is required of it. Connie has obedience scores which range from a low of 173 to a high of 186; she currently has two legs on her UD (and plenty of NQ's in our quest for that elusive third leg). Dream is an OTCH who has garnered many high in trials and placed at this year's Gaines Classic. Clearly, an obedience judge seeing the two dogs in the ring would conclude that Dream was by far the easier dog to train. Yet such was not the case. Connie is an extremely quick study who retains what she learns. Dream, according to her handler, always has difficulty learning and retaining new behaviors. Obviously, only erroneous conclusions could be drawn from their respective ring performances as to the amount of time and repetition it took them to learn the commands.

The most striking difference between the two dogs is a personality issue, not a matter of anything that can be labeled "intelligence." Although Coren devotes a full chapter to what he terms the "personality factor," he does not seem to realize how critical a role it plays in the obedience ring. Connie is like many bassets: she's bright and happy to learn if you can convince her that the learning was her idea in the first place (i.e., if you train with food). But she doesn't have a strong sense of duty; if she's under stress or a bit distracted, she'd as soon not obey a command as obey it. Let's indulge in speculation and generalization for a moment, dangerous though it might be. Bassets are perfectly capable of shutting down entirely under stress; more than anything else, their tendency toward negative stress management is the reason why judges see so many slow-moving, tail-drooping, lagging bassets in the ring. Border collies are an entirely different story. Once a behavior is learned, most border collies seem to perform regardless of stress; indeed, many respond to stress by getting sharper and sharper. Dream is not such a successful obedience dog because of her learning ability. She has excelled because, quite simply, she loves to perform in the ring in front of a crowd of spectators. It is this showy sparkle--a je ne sais quoi which would never appear on a personality or intelligence test--that makes Dream unusually good; her learning pattern is all but irrelevant. My basset loves to learn new things and loves to practice but gets a bit overwhelmed in stressful situations, freezing and refusing to work at all. Again, her learning pattern would be impossible to predict in an assessment of her ring performance. In both cases, an obedience judge, based on what she sees at a trial, would be unable to make any meaningful statement about these dogs' trainability. In general, the difference between bassets and border collies is far more a difference of intensity, energy level, and desire to obey commands in the face of adversity than it is a difference of trainability or problem-solving aptitude.

Mikey T · 09-06-2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

sees everything as a game.

Which is not a bad thing from Training Reminders
"1. Work=play=work. All play is fun and so all work should be as well. If your dog makes a decision during play (example he grabs his toy without being invited to do so) you are reinforcing his right to make decisions during working with you as well (ahh, maybe I will chase the cat rather then practice A Frames right now!)."

Quote:

We are dealing with not coming when called, counter cruising, disruptive barking, and other attention seeking behavior.

These behaviors have one common thread, the lack of impulse control. This is becomming more frequent in dogs, however impulse control can be taught. The articles below should be able to help

Impulse Control

lowering arousal

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In my experience, a few dogs are born with low arousal levels and they have a natural sense of self-control. But I find that there seem to be less and less of these dogs ... I think dogs living in a busy household or environment never learn self control because they are constantly being stimulated and conditioned to be up and active, particularly ones who might be crated for long periods of time. When these d ogs are then let out of the crate, owners often allow them to pace and be continually active in the home environment. Dogs like this can lose their ability to control themselves, similar to what can happen to dogs in a shelter environment.

Selfcontrol and Overstimulation

Quote:

The limbic side is your emotional self.
The cognitive side is your thinking self.

...
Limbic over-rides cognitive. When an animal is in a state of adrenalin arousal from fear, defense, excitement or just plain sensory overload, he not only doesn't listen, he can't hear you. It does no good to repeat "sit sit sit" to a dog who is on emotional overload. He isn't thinking, he is simply reacting to the stimuli around him. He must tune-in and re-connect with you before he will be able to hear what you have to say. You must be able to get his attention first, before you tell him what you would like him to do.

Guidelines for Teach Self Control

It yer Choice

Go Wild and Freeze

Impulse control training: Structured play / tugging with rules

For many it is dificult to maintain the discipline to effectively teach impulse control. Every time the dog is allowed to act impulsively and is rewarded for it undoes much of the training up to that point. For Many a NILIF (nothing in life is free) progam is effective in maintaining such discipline. While it is not required many find it helpful.

Nothing in life is Free

the other aspect of impulse control is have the dog be able to relax ie do nothing.

Rewarding Non-Behavior

Any Dog Can Live Calmly in a House - Even Yours!

Relaxation Protocol
appendix b

Mikey T · 09-06-2010, 03:15 PM

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after spending 30 minutes chasing my 3 y/o Basset Carlton around our yard and adjacent woods

One would suspect this was an expected out come of your behavior to chase

See Insight into puppy Mouthing

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We can't ever just say if a dog is doing X behavior that a handler should always do Y handling technique. It just never is that black and white.
Its all about probabilities. If a dog does X behavior and the response is Y technique than we can often say there is a high probability of a particular response happening with most dogs. There are some fundamental things that are very high probability that apply to many dogs that do nothing or get a completely opposite response from other dogs.
Run away there is a good chance the average dog will follow or chase. Squat down or make little cooing noises then the probability is high they will come closer. But you must always take into account the dog's personality, relationship, situation, current emotional and mental state, temperament and history.

...
It looks complicated when plotting it out but in general people have a much better feel for what the dog's probabilities for certain things are then they do in applying that knowledge to specific situations.
90% of the time if I clearly define something for owners and ask what their dog will likely do, they have a wonderfully detailed knowledge of what their dog will probably do. But most people don't look at the perimeters objectively or with clarity and worse they fall into a pattern of waiting until the dog has done the thing they don't want that they knew was probably going to happen. They then respond to what the dog did even though they could have predicted the Undesired response a week ahead of time.

You need to use your knowledge of your dog and what its expected behavior is when you do something. If it enjoys in engaging you in a rouse game of chase. who is the fool for going along with it. Try something else. like getting the dog to chase you by moving in the opposite direction.

But lets get into dealing with specific behaviors

recall see the articles below read them all they form a comprehensive program to get the dog to come whenever you call

DEPOSITS INTO THE PERFECT RECALL ACCOUNT

DISTRACTIONS FOR YOUR RECALL

List of Reinforcers

For more visual learn the following DVD can be helpful

Really Reliable Recall DVD

Quote:

managed to scamper out the door as I was closing it

We want the dog to sit quitely at the door until realeased. This is easily trained using the "premack Principal" which is use a basical using a highly reliabe behavior to reward another. in this case whe will use walking out the door to reward sitting quietly until release.

simply sit the dog in front of the door.

walk toward the door if dog gets up re sit him repeat as neceasary till you get to door. Open the door as soon as dog move close door, and resit dog. continue until the door is open and dog remains sitting , release dog to outside. This must be done consistently and plan on spending a minimium of a 1/2 hour but more likely more the first time you do this/ In order to work you must be consitent every time and with everyone. who lets the dog out.

a slightly different method using food rewards.

'How to train' Door Dashing Dogs

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He does know sit, down, and rolls over for treats only.

This comes about from not using food properly as a reward and lure but more as a bribe and part of the cue. It is actual fairly easy to retrain these behaviors so while using food as a reward it is just that a reward not a precurser ie bribe or cue to perform the behavior.

see; Reward, lure and Bribes

Training with Food

Quote:

A common myth is that once you train a dog with treats, you must always have them to get your dog to obey. The same could be said of choke chains, prong collars and electronic (shock) collars. If the training isn't done correctly from the beginning, the dog's obedience can become dependent on whatever tool is used. Since a reward follows the dog performing the desired command, the dog doesn't have to see the reward before complying. A good trainer knows the difference and teaches dog owners how to gain independence from training tools.

Behavior.....Trick for a Treat?

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Food is one of the most powerful reinforcers on earth. Problems develop when trainers concentrate too hard on reinforcers and ignore what stimulates behavior. This is a huge mistake because the stimulus is where the problems begin.

...blems develop when dogs create links in their ABC's that you never expected. They will form discriminative stimuli of their own if a powerful antecedent is consistency present. What could be more powerful than the smell of food on your clothing and hands?

If your dog has made such a link (not all dogs or this connection), its behavior will change when you cease to smell like treats. It might have learned that the smell of food must be present with commands or signals to perform a behavior. Your dog is not being arrogant, independent, demanding or obstinate if its performance deteriorates when food isn't present. Rather, it's just trying to make sense of ABC sequence of events when the previously necessary antecedent is missing. "So there," says the no-food-allowed trainer. " In the previous paragraph, you agreed that a treat-trained dog only works for food!" That's not so. The problem is not what your dog eats (the reinforcer), it's what your dog smells (the stimulus)!

...Your goal should be to slowly decrease the smell of food on your person while keeping your dog's performance at a high level. This is called "fading a prompt." You're weaning your dog off of stimulus (how you smell), but you are not weaning it off its treats.

luring

Fading a lure

There is not a discrete rules for fading a lure so it does not become part of the cue or a bribe it is the art part of dog training not the science. It is one area that is especial helpful to have the help of an expeirenced trainer that can be provided by dog oobedience classes or private lessons.

Lightning&Stomps · 09-06-2010, 08:25 PM

When I want Lightning to come to me instead of run away, I turn around and run away from him. That and/or I holler "Lightning want a cookie?" I know this is not true recall, but it works for us. (But Lightning is not in an area where he can run out into a street or any place unsafe.)

Mom2Flash · 09-08-2010, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning&Stomps

When I want Lightning to come to me instead of run away, I turn around and run away from him. That and/or I holler "Lightning want a cookie?" I know this is not true recall, but it works for us. (But Lightning is not in an area where he can run out into a street or any place unsafe.)

Exactly what I do with Flash. He can't resist a good game of chase or a tasty treat!

Mr. Woofus · 09-08-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mom2Flash

Exactly what I do with Flash. He can't resist a good game of chase or a tasty treat!

I just learned this one a couple weeks ago. It works like a charm since they think everything's a game. Run the other way and they'll chase you. Oh the crazy Jedi mind tricks

09-06-2010, 04:38 AM	#1 (permalink)
suzieq/carlton2 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Georgia Posts: 1	Behavior Advice badly needed for badly behaved Bassett I was late to church this morning after spending 30 minutes chasing my 3 y/o Basset Carlton around our yard and adjacent woods. He is always on the leash outside but managed to scamper out the door as I was closing it. He is very mischevious and sees everything as a game. We are dealing with not coming when called, counter cruising, disruptive barking, and other attention seeking behavior. (which I don't understand because he lives in the house and sleeps with my husband/me) He does know sit, down, and rolls over for treats only. He is house and crate trained. Stay is beyond his comprehension. I was raised with dogs and have trained many over the years but none like this.

09-06-2010, 05:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
Emma and Doris Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oslo, Lørenskog, Norway Posts: 3,124	The American Kennel Club ranks dogs in 10 categories after how easy they can learn and repeat orders. German shepherd, Riesenschnauzer, Rottweiler, Doberman etc are in the first group. Guess who's in the 10th group? Steinar, Emma and Doris.

09-06-2010, 07:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
SophieB Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 779	Welcome to the world of The Basset Hound! We've had many over the years and they've almost all been like Carlton!

09-06-2010, 09:05 AM	#4 (permalink)
MollyMcFrecklesMom Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Southeast PA Posts: 942	Day # 3 here at home with Molly and she's showing that basset trait. Most of the time she comes to me, but when there is something more interesting, forget it. I am seeing a few things in her behavior that make me think that puppy obedience classes might not be a bad idea. Get her while she's young and make both our lives easier.

09-06-2010, 08:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
Lightning&Stomps Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Versailles, Ky. Posts: 1,075	When I want Lightning to come to me instead of run away, I turn around and run away from him. That and/or I holler "Lightning want a cookie?" I know this is not true recall, but it works for us. (But Lightning is not in an area where he can run out into a street or any place unsafe.)

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