Spooked basset

Lazy Daisy · 08-19-2010, 09:27 AM

Hello!

I just wanted to stop by and get some advice that I've been needing for the past week.

My six month old basset, Daisy, has come over a large spell of the spooks. It's getting so bad that she won't even go outside with out me physically pulling, or pushing her out the door, then even after that it's a struggle to get her to go anywhere to relieve herself. The reason I'm asking about this is because she is normally so friendly and happy to go outside, and is usually curious about things, but not now. I've had her for two months or so, and the only other time she has ever acted like this was on fourth of July when we were outside.

The only thing I can think of that may have triggered this is when I took her with two of my friends to see a meteor shower late at night, which she would bark a random strangers from a far because she couldn't see them. Other than that, if getting spayed and her shots done did it, I'm really confused.

She is literally spooked by people riding by on bikes, or children waiting for the bus stop. What should I do

???

Leonard's MOM · 08-19-2010, 12:59 PM

I don't have any suggestions or help. My 2 year "Leonard" has developed a fear of going out into the back yard in the early morning dark before I go to work. He seems to be afraid to leave the patio but he will do so when it is daylight. I think his phobia may be the result of stepping on some fire ants which raised a welt on his foot. This is the only thing that has changed since I got him in April. Perhaps your "Daisy" found something to alarm her in the yard?

Mikey T · 08-20-2010, 04:04 AM

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My six month old basset, Daisy, has come over a large spell of the spooks.

Scaredy Dog

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Many behaviorists will note that there is a second "fear period" in the development of most dogs. Generally they peg it around 4 to 6 months or so. Some authors have suggested that the fear period can actually be later than that in development and I have seen some suggestions that this fear period can occur up to a year in age

Puppy Development

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Second Fear Imprint Period (6 - 14 Months) The Second Fear Imprint Period is similar to the one that occurred during the socialization period, but, it is much less defined. It occurs as dogs enter adolescence and seems more common in males. It is often referred to as adolescent shyness. Your dog may suddenly become reluctant to approach something new or suddenly become afraid of something familiar. This behavior can be very frustrating to the owner and difficult to understand because its onset is so sudden and, seemingly, unprovoked. If you notice this behavior, it is important to avoid the two extremes in response: Don't force him to do or approach something frightening to him and don't coddle or baby him. To get through situations that make your dog fearful, be patient, kind, and understanding. Desensitize him to the object or situation by gradually introducing him to it and using food rewards and praise to entice him to confront the fearful object or situation. Do not coddle or reassure him in any way that will encourage his fearful behavior. Do not correct him either. Simply make light of it and encourage him give him food rewards as he begins to deal with his fear better. Make sure you lavishly praise his attempts! This phase will pass.

Fear in Dogs

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Is all fear in dogs related to fear periods? No, it is just one facet to fearful behavior in dogs. And it may be an explanation for Jennys reaction but I have no way of knowing for sure. Dogs can be scared of specific things at any age depending on how traumatic the event is. (again, in the dogs perception)

Keep in mind whether it is a phase the dog is going through or the manifestation of a more serious fear reaction can generally only ascertined for certain after the fact. Did the fear get worse or did it get better.

excerpt for The other end of the Leash

SENSORY, EMOTIONAL, AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE YOUNG DOG

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A sensitive period is a point in the maturing process when events are susceptible to leaving long-term effects, or a period when learning is easier and knowledge gained is stored in the long-term memory. During the sensitive period, a small number of determining experiences have major effects (or damages) on future behavior. The sensitive period is preceded and followed by periods of lower sensitivity, and the transition is gradual.

...In clinical practice we have observed cases where phobic behavior (both towards the dog's immediate surroundings and towards humans with which the dog has little contact) and anxiety develop in pre-puberty. This occasionally leads to an anxiety syndrome which I call "anticipated defense behavior" (Dehasse, 1990a). A Bernese sheep-dog (raised in Belgium) developed intermittent anxiety (with pathological anticipations) around the age of 6 months, despite a social and sensorial enrichment between 3 weeks and 4 months. Her sister acquired the same tendency in a completely different environment (Netherlands), as did her brother (in Switzerland). A family of briards (Brie sheep-dogs) displayed the same tendency, despite differences in the surroundings in which they were raised. This enables us to propose two hypotheses: the hypothesis of inherited temperament and that of the phase of pre-puberty sensitization.

...Wariness of strangers develops:

quickly in the solitary species (from 4 months in foxes),

later in species of average sociability (around 1 year for jackals and coyotes),

and much later in social species such as wolves (between 6 and 18 months) or dogs (beagle, pointer or Chihuahua - between 1 and 2 years).

...It is my hypothesis that an optimal period of attraction-habituation (acquiring sensorial and emotion homeostasic referentials) closes with an emotional and behavioral phase of aversion-fear of the unknown (5-14 weeks). There follows a vulnerable period of cognitive sensitization at pre-puberty or puberty during which minor trauma can occasionally entrench wariness or fear, (ill*)adaptations, and cognitive and emotional distortions that are undesirable in a dog living among humans in a city environment.

Lightning&Stomps · 08-20-2010, 11:36 AM

When Lightning was a puppy, probably 4-6 months old, a male friend of mine with a very loud voice burst through my front door yelling at the top of his lungs. He was just being goofy, but from that point on, Lightning was very distrustful of men. It wsa a noticeable change in his personality. He recently (again, he's 12) has decided that men are okay. (As a side note, over the years I've asked men who come to the house to try to talk quietly and not stand over Lightning or stare at him. I might as well have said chase my dog and scream at him. They all just knew they could win Lightning over by talking loudly to him and stomping toward him. Drove me insane.) But I'm glad Lightning has finally relaxed a bit.

Boopus1965 · 08-21-2010, 02:57 PM

Hi, (growling at forum had a post typed it dumped it without posting it)

I am the owner of 2 bassets and have had 5 over the past 23 years. The one I adopted 19 months ago from rescue she was a severe abuse case. She had been in 3 foster homes, and a failed adoption. The fosters no one could touch her without forcing cornering her catching her and forcing it when she needed to be leashed to go to the vet etc... The failed adoption she ran away 3 times the third time they didn't tell anyone and and went on vacation she spent 3 weeks on the streets before I got her. She was a very severe abuse case was 27 pounds when I got her and had been in rescue for 7 months gaining weight. Terrified petrified are words that can't describe what we went through here. The story is heartbreaking and not my purpose for sharing here. Today I have a happy healthy basset who goes out with me off leash and is a wonderful dog. She is now 4 years old and still amazes us in the new things she does she even let me dremel her nails a week ago for the first time.

That being said the biggest thing as owners we have to overcome is the feeling that we want to cuddle them tell them it's ok encourage them with words. It doesn't work and in fact only tells them you are giving them permission to be afraid and there is really something to be afraid of. I had to force Lolly to face her fears so she could overcome them and learn that her fear was unjustified. She was afraid of everything you couldn't yawn and stretch in the same part of the house with her she tear out of the room cower and shake.

First thing I would recommend is a good harness so she doesn't get loose on you and can't back out of it. As for walking out the door put the harness on her, without speaking without making eye contact if she starts acting up immediately then just sit down till she stops. When you go to walk go away from the door, keep your head up straight a short leash next to and walk turn in a circle and head for the door, do not look at her do pause hesitate, go with the attitude you are going outside period. Same when you go to walk around the yard head up no talking no eye contact and walk you are becoming the leader and she will follow. If you break weak or she senses your nervous then this won't work you have to get the mindset nothing is harming her and she is going to face it. Same with bicycles kids etc.. walk past them keep on going no stopping no talking, once your past a ways turn around and go back past them again. Get this under control now don't wait for it to be a toaster a leaf or anything else.

The main thing is not to sympathize or talk to them, it is only making us as owners feel better not the scared animal. Today Lolly will hear a loud noise I drop something and while she might jump at first she doesn't run just looks then lays back down oh yeah it's ok. Her first response may always be to jump but she has an instant recovery. This was one of the most heartbreaking and rewarding things I have ever done in my life. I hope this helps if not please let me know and I will walk you through it. My goal is to never see a situation that Lolly got to and while hers was abuse you can create a lot of problems when you talk to them while they are afraid. Good Luck!

Mikey T · 08-22-2010, 01:23 AM

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you can create a lot of problems when you talk to them while they are afraid

More myth than truth. It is not the coddling.conforting etc that increases a fear reaction but simply not having anything bad happen when they feel this way reinforcing the fear but keep in mind when in a fearful state little learning can take place. It is through desensitizing and counter conditioning, that is having the dog associate the item at fear with good things happening but at a distance or other context that does not provoke a fear response.

Can Fear be Rewarded? written by Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D. and Daniel Q. Estep, Ph.D., Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists.
[quote]Of all the myths and misconceptions that have surrounded dog behavior and training for a very long time, perhaps the most persistent is the one that claims it is possible to reinforce an animal's fear by paying attention to him or trying to reassure him.

... If your pet's feelings of being afraid don't intensify, then neither will her fearful behaviors.
There seems to be a persistent belief that it is possible to reward fearful behaviors without rewarding the emotion of fear. This may be true in people. We all know individuals with a "martyr" mentality who will act fearful and helpless just to get attention and have others take care of them. This doesn't seem to be true for animals. They don't pretend. If they don't feel afraid, they don't act afraid. When their emotional state changes, so do their behaviors.[quote]

You Can’t Reinforce Fear; Dogs and Thunderstorms

Reinforcing Fear II, Thunder Phobia III

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I had to force Lolly to face her fears so she could overcome them

This is a technique called flooding, it can work but most individuals are not able to implement it properly often making matters worse not better. Also given there are aternative techniques that have far fewer negative consequense It is IMHO better to begin with those and only resort to ones with higher negative consequences only if the other techniques fail which is rarely the case.

The Process of Working With a Fearful Dog

BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION: REDUCING FEAR AND ANXIETY - DESENSITIZATION, COUNTER-CONDITIONING AND FLOODING

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What are flooding and exposure techniques?

Another technique for reducing fearful behavior is to continuously expose the pet to the stimulus until it settles down (habituates). This technique will only work if the stimulus is not associated with any adverse consequence, and the pet is exposed for as long as is needed until the pet calms down. Once the pet is exposed, the stimulus must not leave or be removed until the pet calms down. Similarly the pet must not be removed or allowed to retreat until the pet habituates. Once the pet settles, reinforcement can be given to ensure that the ultimate result is a positive association with the stimulus. The pet must not be rewarded until it calms and settles down as this would serve to reward the fearful behavior. Owner intervention or punishment must not be utilized as this would lead to an unpleasant association with the stimulus. Since exposure must continue until the pet settles down, flooding is most successful for fears that are not too intense. Beginning with a somewhat lower or muted stimulus may be best. In practice, keeping the pet in a cage or crate or keeping a dog on a leash and halter during exposure to the stimulus, will prevent escape and prevent injury to the stimulus (person or pet).

Flooding has some severe limitation one can not remove the dog or the fearful stimuli until it is no longer afraid. This is often difficult to do. How do you stop the passing dog when walking on the street your dog reacts fearful towards. The dog moves on and the dogs fears are reinforced by the successful out come the threat is moved on. Flooding can aslo lead to another sever problem cause "learned helplessness"

FEAR & the Use of Systematic Desensitization

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Flooding is occasionally used for mild fears, but it must continue until the dog is showing no signs of fear. This takes a long time (up to 8 continuous hours), and if the dog is removed before it has habituated to the stimulus, the fear response may be worse (the dog learns that if he is fearful the stimulus is removed). This technique is seldom used for this reason.

Alternatives to Breaking Parrots: Reducing Aggression and Fear through Learning

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Response blocking is called flooding for a reason: When it doesn’t work the animal sinks rather than swims. When it does work, flooding results in a rapid reduction in fearful behavior; however it is just as likely to result in overwhelming stress, anxiety, and lasting generalized aversion to the people present during the flooding episode and elements in the environment at large. Flooding can result in such intense resistance that physical harm can occur to the birds and people. Additionally, there is considerable research that shows the long term detrimental effects of repeated exposure to uncontrollable aversive events with both animals and people (Mazur, 2002), as is the case with repeated flooding. Learned helplessness is one such dire outcome.

Learned helplessness is the expectation that one's behavior has little or no effect on the environment. This expectation results from repeated exposure to uncontrollable aversive events without opportunity to escape. Research has shown that animals subjected to this condition often suffer a loss of motivation so that they do not even try to affect their environment even when they can. They give up easily and show significant deficits in learning and performance. Emotional problems are frequently observed as well, for example, rats developed ulcers; cats ate less; humans suffered increased blood pressure; and monkeys became ill (Maier and Seligman, 1976). Another worry is the recent practice of demonstrating flooding on birds at bird club meetings. Aside from the blatant disrespect shown the already fearful animal by flooding it in such a casual setting, research suggests that short duration flooding sessions, as is the case at many bird club demonstrations, can increase fears (Staub, 1968; Yule, et.al., 1974) and very likely increases associated aggression as well . This may account for the frequently reported short-term effects of these demonstrations with birds.

I and many other behaviorists (e.g. Burch and Bailey, 1999; Morgenstern, 1973

, experienced bird trainers (Martin, 2002, Morrow, 2002) and bird caretakers believe that this procedure is not a humane method of dealing with aggression or fear, especially in light of the many validated positive alternatives. To better assess the ethics of this procedure, I challenge readers to think truly for one minute about your greatest fear: Is it snakes? Spiders or rock ledges? The dark when you are alone? Bridges or tight spaces? Now, imagine being grabbed by your leg, wrapped tightly in a sheet and restrained in the presence of this feared stimulus or condition with no control and no possibility of escape. For some of you, if restrained long enough, this feeling of sweat-breaking, breath-robbing panic will extinguish. Now, answer this: Even in cases of apparent effectiveness, is efficacy the only criterion for selecting best practices with our companion parrots in light of more positive, less intrusive behavior-change strategies?

Learned Helplessness

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One famous experiment which examined the phenomenon of learned helplessness involved three sets of dogs. One set of dogs were placed in regular harnesses and became the control group. The second set of dogs were fitted with shock collars and placed in boxes with a foot-operated switch. These dogs could turn off the painful shocks by pressing the switch at any time. The third set of dogs were tethered to the second set with the shock collars, but their foot switches were rendered useless by the experimenters. They had no control over the duration or intensity of the electric shocks.

The results of the experiment demonstrated that the third group of dogs eventually stopped pressing the ineffective foot switches and became very passive and depressed. For those dogs, the painful shocks became an inescapable part of their existence, with no possible way to control or escape the situation. During a second experiment in which the dogs could end the shocks by jumping over a low barrier, the dogs from the third group would not even attempt to jump. This passivity and loss of self-worth is the direct result of learned helplessness,

For at least some dogs the flooding experince is equally adversive as continious shocks when they eventual calm it is not because the are no longer afraid it is because they can not effect the out come This comes at a high price on the dogs mental state.

Learned Helplessness
[quote]dogs exposed to traumatic inescapable shock showed signs of neurotic elaboration and disintegration on cognitive, emotional, and motivational levels of organization” according to Lindsay (2000).
...An astounding outcome was “inescapable shock had dramatic negative and interfering effects on postshock learning” and even those few dogs who were successful in escaping the shock were unable to repeat the behavior in subsequent trials (Lindsay, 2000).

...Lindsay (2000) says, “…unpredictable and uncontrollable aversive stimulation” and its effects can be even more “pervasive and debilitating, when a subject is not given the opportunity to learn avoidance cues pertaining to negative reinforcement and noncontingent punishment. In addition, he says “…the loss of control over significant events via the noncontingent presentation of appetitive or aversive stimuli results in reduced operant initiative and retards associative learning processes.”

The devastating effects on dogs can include becoming “overly cautious, nervous, and insular” since they are unable to predict outcomes concerning their behavior. Additional observed behavior might include punishment passivity, pain insensitive, stubborn, failing and resistant to learning and appearing to struggle with training often resorting to withdrawal (Lindsay, 2000).
[/url]

Boopus1965 · 08-23-2010, 12:57 AM

Sigh here we go again, and again your quoting things and ad-libbing with no experience which is just wrong. Again you can quote from your book or website all day long and again I can go provide you with 10 articles to contradict what you copied and pasted. That is all I have seen in your forum posts over and over again.

Well I am here to tell you that you and your theories are dead wrong!!! Completely undisputedly wrong!

You most certainly can and do feed the fear of animal and you most certainly can create a lot more problems when you talk to them while they are afraid. Watch a dog that is scared, watch them closely, if you don't acknowledge their fear watch them be forced to reason it out on their own. Watch how they respond, they investigate and reason things out no one else is acting upset and hey the pack leader isn't upset so it must be ok. Take the same dog and try to talk to that animal while they are afraid of something, watch them back away, watch their actions most of them will begin to tremble when you are acknowledging that fear, or you can turn a cautious dog exploring something new into fear, if they were before it becomes worse when you talk to them. You are indeed telling them hey that thunderstorm is scary and I need to be afraid of it, when they first act afraid ignore them act bored yawn stretch whatever. They stop the fear immediately but only if you have truly ignored it, no eye contact, no touching, no talking.

Flooding has some severe limitation one can not remove the dog or the fearful stimuli until it is no longer afraid. This is often difficult to do. How do you stop the passing dog when walking on the street your dog reacts fearful towards. The dog moves on and the dogs fears are reinforced by the successful out come the threat is moved on. Flooding can aslo lead to another sever problem cause "learned helplessness"

Ummmm wrong, I never "flooded" and I never caused "learned helplessness" I did not intentionally take the animal and physically force her to do anything, I did not put the offending item in front of her and force her repeatedly till she was submissive and no longer fearing the item. Wrong wrong wrong, I did put up a baby gate and not let her flee the room or the situation. So, if I dropped something or set a pan down on the counter she wasn't allowed to panic and leave the room. If she reacted negatively and I knew "if" the gate was down she would have run out of the room, I would wait until she was relaxed and repeat the noise softer, again the next day, or an hour later, whenever I would think of it. Never acknowledging her letting her reason it out on her own, I didn't get hurt nothing bad happened ok it's alright. I had to do this on an hourly basis a gazillion times a day, I don't think you are understanding me when I tell you this was an abused animal. She was so traumatized it was heart breaking, you couldn't yawn or stretch in my great room I could be in the kitchen her in the living 20 feet away a yawn or a stretch and she would flee petrified. It took me 2 months of sitting in a chair with her and just holding her collar and leash, putting the collar on her praising and taking it off before I ever attempted to walk with her. If you put a collar or harness on her the panic was unbelievable today she prances on her walks. Walking across a grate in a sidewalk and the metal sound sent her into panic mode, walking the same routine daily, across the grate each way there and back, not acknowledging her fear, head held high keep on going. Today she crosses the crate and will rest and stand there looking up saying come on lets go, tail wagging. The simple act of placing the scared basset in this post on a leash, walking away from the door then straight out it head held high out into the yard not pausing, not giving in to the fear. Is not flooding this animal nor is going to cause any harm to the animal at all.

WHY ARE YOU QUOTING THINGS ABOUT SHOCKING ANIMALS? Are you crazy, I never mentioned a shock collar, I never sat my dog down for 8 continuous hours to accomplish anything. I didn't make her feel helpless, quite the opposite in fact she prances with her head held high, tail at full mast wagging up a storm. People who saw her 20 months ago can not believe this is the same dog, the one who if you reached to pet her would tuck her head and shake, tremble from head to tail. The same dog who I have been able to dermel her toenails twice in the last month by myself with her laying there doesn't care. The same dog who loves her weekly bath and jumps into the tub on her own, comes running. So, instead of spouting off a bunch of crap from a book and making assumptions. How about asking someone what they did or didn't do. Acknowledge the fact that just because you read something somewhere doesn't make it 100% gospel and since you have no experience what you are typing just might be wrong?

Bo

Mikey T · 08-23-2010, 04:49 AM

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Sigh here we go again, and again your quoting things and ad-libbing with no experience which is just wrong ...Completely undisputed wrong!

from someone that has experience with a dog with a very benign reaction to scary stuff. Have you any real experience working with a fear biter? Well I have . Techniques like "Same with bicycles kids etc.. walk past them keep on going no stopping no talking, once your past a ways turn around and go back past them again." Is a quick way to get someone hurt if the only control you have is a leash and forcing such a confrontation.

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You most certainly can and do feed the fear of animal and you most certainly can create a lot more problems when you talk to them while they are afraid.

Forgive me If I take the side of the experts with many years of experience in dealing with fearful dogs. That is why I provide the links and quotes. The thoughts and words of two of the most preeminent animal behaviorist should certainly carry more weight than mine or your for that matter. As for being undisputed wrong the quote and articles speak for themselves

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They stop the fear immediately but only if you have truly ignored it, no eye contact, no touching, no talking.

Obvious from someone that has never had a truly thunderstorm phobic dog the would hide in a corner and not come out as long as the storm is present the fear reaction is still there regardless of what you do or do not do. You can ignore the dog all you want, heck leave the house and drive to the next county, monitor the dog on video. It will stay in its little cocoon until the storm is over.

There is evidence that touching certainly can help in such cases. This is the reason for the proliferation of thunder shirts and wraps. Pressure Wraps for dogs

The Anxiety Wrap Study

there is also indications that placing a fearful dog in a body posture that indicates less fear the dogs emotional state changes as well.

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ignore them act bored yawn stretch whatever

you do know what a Calming Signals are and the effect they have on dogs?
Calming Signals

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Believe it or not, people can use calming signals to help put dogs at ease. Try this: The next time your dog looks stressed, get his attention and then yawn exaggeratedly or lick your lips repeatedly. You might be surprised. He might reply with calming signals of his own, or simply visibly relax. Although you can use any of the signals, use your own judgment regarding scratching in public

Yawning the equivalent of telling your dog everything is going to be ok. B ut wait the is only going to increase his fear

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mmm wrong, I never "flooded'

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...she is going to face it. Same with bicycles kids etc.. walk past them keep on going no stopping no talking, once your past a ways turn around and go back past them again.

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...I did put up a baby gate and not let her flee the room or the situation

The dog in each instance is placed in a fearful situation and physically restrained the very definition of flooding.

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I never caused "learned helplessness'

Never said you did, nor did I question the effectiveness of your methodology and/or flooding. As a matter of fact, I explicitly said "it can work". I simply pointed out the dangers that exist from using such a techniques and the limitation of the effectiveness and when it should be applied or attempted.

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WHY ARE YOU QUOTING THINGS ABOUT SHOCKING ANIMALS?

because through such experiment was the existence of "learned helplessness" discovered. It also provides the back drop of the type of trauma the dog needs to go through to have such a reaction. I am gussing you did not take the time to read the enire link which include why learned helplessness occurs in only some animal etc. It is why I provide the links to provide more information than is possible in the limited space of this forum.

Boopus1965 · 08-23-2010, 06:08 AM

You absolutely crack me up, do me a favor in the future if I post a thread on my own don't bother to respond, it will go unread and will be a complete waste of your time!

Again there ya are with your "EXPERTS" again I can provide 10 times the "EXPERT'S" who will disagree with you. Your word and your sources are not the final word on any subject by any means, and laughable at best, that you seem them as gospel. I am a very open minded person and believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however your approach and delivery is very offensive.

Yes, I have been training dogs for 25 years 4 years prior to owning my first dog on my OWN. Which is why I took on the abused basset hound instead of running out and getting a puppy. I have done foster, stray rescue, as well as stray transport, and been a personal trainer, training puppies for years. Yes,I have dealt with several fear biters and hmmm we are talking about a basset hound that is afraid not fear biting her owner. I did indeed state to get a harness not a collar that could easily be slipped out of.

I have dealt with several dogs terrified of thunder storms and rehabilitated several from rescue, so don't tell me I don't know what that issue is like finding the nearest closet or bed to crawl under or into. I did state prevention, was not explaining a pre-existing condition, I live in the worst area in the US for lightning with more lightning strikes then anywhere else, constant tornado warnings coming off the gulf, I have 3 dogs who I have never acknowledged their concern during a nasty storm. I didn't acknowledge the behavior from the start so it never had a chance to escalate into a fear, they just lay around during a storm which they should. Again you are bringing up issues that are dealt with completely different then preventing the behavior before it imbeds itself into fear and a problem. Again treatment being a whole different ballgame once the animal is terrified, and I would never in a million years resort to your compression wrap or thunder shirt. I don't care how calming it is, I am going to redirect the fear in the animal to get over the fear not use a bandaid on an open wound which is all the thunder wrap is. I will rehabilitate that animal past it's fears and I have not failed at this yet.

Again, there you go misinterpreting what I said, so you can respond with your own snide remark. I did not say to look at your dog, touch your dog, or talk to your dog I said yawn and stretch I am not acknowledging my dog's fear or causing a fear. I am simply speaking dog language and letting him know, your worried about the whole thing and I am bored maybe I'll take a nap, nothing going on I need to worry about. Which will accomplish a whole lot more and translate to his understanding then, "Oh poor baby it's ok".

AGAIN I DID NOT FLOOD, baby gate in a hallway 5 rooms on this side of the house to choose from, I did indeed tell you I had a great room, (living room, dining room, kitchen, with a music room off the kitchen and an open sun porch beyond the dining room. I did also tell you I was in the kitchen 20 feet away, not forcing the situation on her flooding is taking an animal and let's say they are scared to death of a leaf and making the dog lay down while I make the dog touch the leaf, lay the leaf in front of them, drop the leaf on top of them, that is flooding!!! I don't believe in the technique nor would I ever use it.

I did read your entire post the point is how far out in left field you approach the situations, to take a simple place a harness on the dog walk away from the door and out don't look, don't talk, don't touch. To shock therapy causing learned helplessness, and comparing the two situations is just insane. Nothing I have suggested in training is going to cause learned helplessness anyway, Your posts would be far better received if you would offer another opinion instead of constantly quoting someone and then trying to contradict what they have offered. Implying that I am trapping a dog in an area and flooding when you obviously have no clue what your talking about or what the term actually is, I find very offensive.

Respectfully,

Bo =o)

Lazy Daisy · 08-24-2010, 04:37 PM

Well, thank you all very much for the in put, We'll see how Daisy is going to turn out. MUCH APPRECIATED!

08-19-2010, 09:27 AM	#1 (permalink)
Lazy Daisy Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 8	Spooked basset Hello! I just wanted to stop by and get some advice that I've been needing for the past week. My six month old basset, Daisy, has come over a large spell of the spooks. It's getting so bad that she won't even go outside with out me physically pulling, or pushing her out the door, then even after that it's a struggle to get her to go anywhere to relieve herself. The reason I'm asking about this is because she is normally so friendly and happy to go outside, and is usually curious about things, but not now. I've had her for two months or so, and the only other time she has ever acted like this was on fourth of July when we were outside. The only thing I can think of that may have triggered this is when I took her with two of my friends to see a meteor shower late at night, which she would bark a random strangers from a far because she couldn't see them. Other than that, if getting spayed and her shots done did it, I'm really confused. She is literally spooked by people riding by on bikes, or children waiting for the bus stop. What should I do ???

08-19-2010, 12:59 PM	#2 (permalink)
Leonard's MOM Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6	I don't have any suggestions or help. My 2 year "Leonard" has developed a fear of going out into the back yard in the early morning dark before I go to work. He seems to be afraid to leave the patio but he will do so when it is daylight. I think his phobia may be the result of stepping on some fire ants which raised a welt on his foot. This is the only thing that has changed since I got him in April. Perhaps your "Daisy" found something to alarm her in the yard?

08-20-2010, 11:36 AM	#4 (permalink)
Lightning&Stomps Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Versailles, Ky. Posts: 1,075	When Lightning was a puppy, probably 4-6 months old, a male friend of mine with a very loud voice burst through my front door yelling at the top of his lungs. He was just being goofy, but from that point on, Lightning was very distrustful of men. It wsa a noticeable change in his personality. He recently (again, he's 12) has decided that men are okay. (As a side note, over the years I've asked men who come to the house to try to talk quietly and not stand over Lightning or stare at him. I might as well have said chase my dog and scream at him. They all just knew they could win Lightning over by talking loudly to him and stomping toward him. Drove me insane.) But I'm glad Lightning has finally relaxed a bit.

08-21-2010, 02:57 PM	#5 (permalink)
Boopus1965 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Currently Alabama Posts: 29	Hi, (growling at forum had a post typed it dumped it without posting it) I am the owner of 2 bassets and have had 5 over the past 23 years. The one I adopted 19 months ago from rescue she was a severe abuse case. She had been in 3 foster homes, and a failed adoption. The fosters no one could touch her without forcing cornering her catching her and forcing it when she needed to be leashed to go to the vet etc... The failed adoption she ran away 3 times the third time they didn't tell anyone and and went on vacation she spent 3 weeks on the streets before I got her. She was a very severe abuse case was 27 pounds when I got her and had been in rescue for 7 months gaining weight. Terrified petrified are words that can't describe what we went through here. The story is heartbreaking and not my purpose for sharing here. Today I have a happy healthy basset who goes out with me off leash and is a wonderful dog. She is now 4 years old and still amazes us in the new things she does she even let me dremel her nails a week ago for the first time. That being said the biggest thing as owners we have to overcome is the feeling that we want to cuddle them tell them it's ok encourage them with words. It doesn't work and in fact only tells them you are giving them permission to be afraid and there is really something to be afraid of. I had to force Lolly to face her fears so she could overcome them and learn that her fear was unjustified. She was afraid of everything you couldn't yawn and stretch in the same part of the house with her she tear out of the room cower and shake. First thing I would recommend is a good harness so she doesn't get loose on you and can't back out of it. As for walking out the door put the harness on her, without speaking without making eye contact if she starts acting up immediately then just sit down till she stops. When you go to walk go away from the door, keep your head up straight a short leash next to and walk turn in a circle and head for the door, do not look at her do pause hesitate, go with the attitude you are going outside period. Same when you go to walk around the yard head up no talking no eye contact and walk you are becoming the leader and she will follow. If you break weak or she senses your nervous then this won't work you have to get the mindset nothing is harming her and she is going to face it. Same with bicycles kids etc.. walk past them keep on going no stopping no talking, once your past a ways turn around and go back past them again. Get this under control now don't wait for it to be a toaster a leaf or anything else. The main thing is not to sympathize or talk to them, it is only making us as owners feel better not the scared animal. Today Lolly will hear a loud noise I drop something and while she might jump at first she doesn't run just looks then lays back down oh yeah it's ok. Her first response may always be to jump but she has an instant recovery. This was one of the most heartbreaking and rewarding things I have ever done in my life. I hope this helps if not please let me know and I will walk you through it. My goal is to never see a situation that Lolly got to and while hers was abuse you can create a lot of problems when you talk to them while they are afraid. Good Luck!

08-23-2010, 12:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
Boopus1965 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Currently Alabama Posts: 29	Sigh here we go again, and again your quoting things and ad-libbing with no experience which is just wrong. Again you can quote from your book or website all day long and again I can go provide you with 10 articles to contradict what you copied and pasted. That is all I have seen in your forum posts over and over again. Well I am here to tell you that you and your theories are dead wrong!!! Completely undisputedly wrong! You most certainly can and do feed the fear of animal and you most certainly can create a lot more problems when you talk to them while they are afraid. Watch a dog that is scared, watch them closely, if you don't acknowledge their fear watch them be forced to reason it out on their own. Watch how they respond, they investigate and reason things out no one else is acting upset and hey the pack leader isn't upset so it must be ok. Take the same dog and try to talk to that animal while they are afraid of something, watch them back away, watch their actions most of them will begin to tremble when you are acknowledging that fear, or you can turn a cautious dog exploring something new into fear, if they were before it becomes worse when you talk to them. You are indeed telling them hey that thunderstorm is scary and I need to be afraid of it, when they first act afraid ignore them act bored yawn stretch whatever. They stop the fear immediately but only if you have truly ignored it, no eye contact, no touching, no talking. Flooding has some severe limitation one can not remove the dog or the fearful stimuli until it is no longer afraid. This is often difficult to do. How do you stop the passing dog when walking on the street your dog reacts fearful towards. The dog moves on and the dogs fears are reinforced by the successful out come the threat is moved on. Flooding can aslo lead to another sever problem cause "learned helplessness" Ummmm wrong, I never "flooded" and I never caused "learned helplessness" I did not intentionally take the animal and physically force her to do anything, I did not put the offending item in front of her and force her repeatedly till she was submissive and no longer fearing the item. Wrong wrong wrong, I did put up a baby gate and not let her flee the room or the situation. So, if I dropped something or set a pan down on the counter she wasn't allowed to panic and leave the room. If she reacted negatively and I knew "if" the gate was down she would have run out of the room, I would wait until she was relaxed and repeat the noise softer, again the next day, or an hour later, whenever I would think of it. Never acknowledging her letting her reason it out on her own, I didn't get hurt nothing bad happened ok it's alright. I had to do this on an hourly basis a gazillion times a day, I don't think you are understanding me when I tell you this was an abused animal. She was so traumatized it was heart breaking, you couldn't yawn or stretch in my great room I could be in the kitchen her in the living 20 feet away a yawn or a stretch and she would flee petrified. It took me 2 months of sitting in a chair with her and just holding her collar and leash, putting the collar on her praising and taking it off before I ever attempted to walk with her. If you put a collar or harness on her the panic was unbelievable today she prances on her walks. Walking across a grate in a sidewalk and the metal sound sent her into panic mode, walking the same routine daily, across the grate each way there and back, not acknowledging her fear, head held high keep on going. Today she crosses the crate and will rest and stand there looking up saying come on lets go, tail wagging. The simple act of placing the scared basset in this post on a leash, walking away from the door then straight out it head held high out into the yard not pausing, not giving in to the fear. Is not flooding this animal nor is going to cause any harm to the animal at all. WHY ARE YOU QUOTING THINGS ABOUT SHOCKING ANIMALS? Are you crazy, I never mentioned a shock collar, I never sat my dog down for 8 continuous hours to accomplish anything. I didn't make her feel helpless, quite the opposite in fact she prances with her head held high, tail at full mast wagging up a storm. People who saw her 20 months ago can not believe this is the same dog, the one who if you reached to pet her would tuck her head and shake, tremble from head to tail. The same dog who I have been able to dermel her toenails twice in the last month by myself with her laying there doesn't care. The same dog who loves her weekly bath and jumps into the tub on her own, comes running. So, instead of spouting off a bunch of crap from a book and making assumptions. How about asking someone what they did or didn't do. Acknowledge the fact that just because you read something somewhere doesn't make it 100% gospel and since you have no experience what you are typing just might be wrong? Bo

08-23-2010, 06:08 AM	#9 (permalink)
Boopus1965 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Currently Alabama Posts: 29	You absolutely crack me up, do me a favor in the future if I post a thread on my own don't bother to respond, it will go unread and will be a complete waste of your time! Again there ya are with your "EXPERTS" again I can provide 10 times the "EXPERT'S" who will disagree with you. Your word and your sources are not the final word on any subject by any means, and laughable at best, that you seem them as gospel. I am a very open minded person and believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however your approach and delivery is very offensive. Yes, I have been training dogs for 25 years 4 years prior to owning my first dog on my OWN. Which is why I took on the abused basset hound instead of running out and getting a puppy. I have done foster, stray rescue, as well as stray transport, and been a personal trainer, training puppies for years. Yes,I have dealt with several fear biters and hmmm we are talking about a basset hound that is afraid not fear biting her owner. I did indeed state to get a harness not a collar that could easily be slipped out of. I have dealt with several dogs terrified of thunder storms and rehabilitated several from rescue, so don't tell me I don't know what that issue is like finding the nearest closet or bed to crawl under or into. I did state prevention, was not explaining a pre-existing condition, I live in the worst area in the US for lightning with more lightning strikes then anywhere else, constant tornado warnings coming off the gulf, I have 3 dogs who I have never acknowledged their concern during a nasty storm. I didn't acknowledge the behavior from the start so it never had a chance to escalate into a fear, they just lay around during a storm which they should. Again you are bringing up issues that are dealt with completely different then preventing the behavior before it imbeds itself into fear and a problem. Again treatment being a whole different ballgame once the animal is terrified, and I would never in a million years resort to your compression wrap or thunder shirt. I don't care how calming it is, I am going to redirect the fear in the animal to get over the fear not use a bandaid on an open wound which is all the thunder wrap is. I will rehabilitate that animal past it's fears and I have not failed at this yet. Again, there you go misinterpreting what I said, so you can respond with your own snide remark. I did not say to look at your dog, touch your dog, or talk to your dog I said yawn and stretch I am not acknowledging my dog's fear or causing a fear. I am simply speaking dog language and letting him know, your worried about the whole thing and I am bored maybe I'll take a nap, nothing going on I need to worry about. Which will accomplish a whole lot more and translate to his understanding then, "Oh poor baby it's ok". AGAIN I DID NOT FLOOD, baby gate in a hallway 5 rooms on this side of the house to choose from, I did indeed tell you I had a great room, (living room, dining room, kitchen, with a music room off the kitchen and an open sun porch beyond the dining room. I did also tell you I was in the kitchen 20 feet away, not forcing the situation on her flooding is taking an animal and let's say they are scared to death of a leaf and making the dog lay down while I make the dog touch the leaf, lay the leaf in front of them, drop the leaf on top of them, that is flooding!!! I don't believe in the technique nor would I ever use it. I did read your entire post the point is how far out in left field you approach the situations, to take a simple place a harness on the dog walk away from the door and out don't look, don't talk, don't touch. To shock therapy causing learned helplessness, and comparing the two situations is just insane. Nothing I have suggested in training is going to cause learned helplessness anyway, Your posts would be far better received if you would offer another opinion instead of constantly quoting someone and then trying to contradict what they have offered. Implying that I am trapping a dog in an area and flooding when you obviously have no clue what your talking about or what the term actually is, I find very offensive. Respectfully, Bo =o)

08-24-2010, 04:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
Lazy Daisy Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 8	Well, thank you all very much for the in put, We'll see how Daisy is going to turn out. MUCH APPRECIATED!

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