Advice appreciated (before I go bald)

Tex Gore · 08-05-2010, 04:26 AM

Aye up,

We have an 8-month old Basset pup called Maggie Moon. Moon is, for the most part, a good dog and is an expert at manipulating her owners with doleful looks and innocent presentation of tummies to be tickled, etc.

We've made some good progress I think; she is house-trained (she will go outside if the door is left open, and will ask if the door is closed), she doesn't bark when on her own or overnight, she will walk happily off her leash without running off (and will stay if told to) and doesn't pull when on the leash. On the whole, she's a lovely little dog.

There are, however, a couple of things we simply cannot seem to resolve. I guess we've been spoiled in the past with our old dog; a Labrador, who was trained to do just about anything and never put a paw wrong, but nonetheless it's frustrating that we cannot seem to find a way to stop this behaviour in Moon.

The first thing is jumping. Maggie bounces like a space-hopper in a spring factory. She jumps up at us, which we are dealing with slowly I think by ignoring it and praising her after she stops, but she jumps up at our kitchen surfaces and has stolen stuff from up there on the rare occasion we've forgotten to move it. We simply cannot seem to stop her doing this.

Secondly she chases our poor aged cat, Edwin. If she catches him she doesn't do anything - in fact she appears to be trying to give Edwin a hug, however he's not especially enamoured with Moon and she will often get a furry right-hook for her trouble, but this doesn't seem to put her off. We don't like her chasing Edwin as he's getting on in years now, and he doesn't like it. She does understand the 'leave' command - for example she will sit and wait by her food without touching it whilst we tell her to 'leave' but the same command doesn't seem to work when it comes to the cat.

The last thing is, despite being told constantly, her going upstairs and stealing Edwin's food, and generally making a mess. We just cannot seem to stop her. We've fitted a baby-gate now at the bottom of the stairs, but whenever we forget and leave it open (or sometimes as we open it to get up the stairs) she'll shoot up - again. If she's left to wander the house unsupervised (i.e. we're not in the same room as her) she can be quite destructive. Yesterday she ate the wife's Wisteria, which didn't go down at all well (for the wife, or the dog).

I appreciate that the Basset is a characteristically stubborn breed, but whereas with our old Lab we always felt that fundamentally she would do what we told her, with Moon we feel that whereas she is often obedient, ultimately she'll do what she wants!

Any tips or advice gratefully received, before I tear what's left of my hair out.

jmwolff · 08-05-2010, 07:12 AM

Well I hope someone can help you with the food thing, but I have to say the way we overcame this was by never leaving food where Bailey could reach it, and everyone who came to our house knew this rule...because if you didn't learn it you lost it. I talked to a Breeder recently who refered to some of the dogs as "counter cruisers" which made me laugh because that was EXACTLY what Bailey did. I hope it's not one of those hopeless basset traits because I have two more coming! But even the 3 yo announces "somebody watch my food" before she leaves the table.

As for the jumping up, I was taught in the training classes we took to step towards the dog when they jump up on you, rather than step back or push them off.

I also keep the cat food up high were Bailey couldn't reach it, and the litter box turned so he couldn't snack on the poop....which now that he is gone I see he must have been doing anyway judging by the increase in poop output in the litter box.

Soundtrack · 08-05-2010, 09:43 AM

As you may have noticed, Bassets are NOT Labs.

For the jumping up, make sure you are paying her attention BEFORE she feels the need to jump. This is harder with a Basset than a Lab, because a Lab is already high enough for you to pet easily, whereas with the Basset you must bend over. It is not enough to not reward bad behavior, you also need to reward desired behavior to show the dog what IS expected.

As far as counter cruising and eating the cat food, it's much easier to manage the situation (make it impossible - baby gate, food out of reach) than it is to train a Basset not to do it. When training, intermittent reward is actually stronger than a constant reward, and every time she is successful at stealing food she is getting that powerful intermittent reward, so unless YOU can be perfect about stopping her from getting the reward every time it's pretty much a losing battle, especially with a breed as persistent as the Basset.

Chasing the cat is self-rewarding, so again either the opportunity must be removed (leash the dog in the presence of the cat, put the cat elsewhere in the house), or the cat will have to decide how best to cope with the situation (i.e. sticking to areas of the house where the dog can't go). FWIW, my black cat is still silly enough to come into the house while the pups are loose, whereupon he gets squished and barked at until I rescue him, although he's finally figured out not to go into the yard with them, since I can't always tell what they're barking at and he may be stuck there for a while. He does know enough to lie still once he's gotten himself into that situation.

For the destructiveness, possibly more exercise and some additonal training (giving her something to do) will help, but the main thing is that she obviously still needs supervision at all times so that her chewing energies can be redirected before they start.

Quote:

with Moon we feel that whereas she is often obedient, ultimately she'll do what she wants!

And that is the essence of the Basset!

Lightning&Stomps · 08-05-2010, 09:56 AM

Lightning and my cat get along great, but they do play rough sometimes, so I always make sure the cat has an escape route. Most of the time, Lightning is restricted to half the house. I put up baby gates, and I keep them high enough off the floor so that the cat can get underneath to safety. (In the interest of fairness, Lightning has dog doors so he can escape the cat when he needs to.) In general, I would recommend you restrict your dog's access to the entire house as it gives him less access to things he can destroy and/or eat. When I got bassets, I learned that I had to think like a basset and "basset-proof" the house, which means nothing left in their reach that I don't mind seeing eaten, the cushions on chairs that I want to keep turned up so that they can't get on the furniture, the cat's food in an area that they can't get to, dog doors aplenty, etc. etc. etc. It took a LONG time to figure all that out. And always keep in mind: A tired basset is a good basset. That's probably the most important advice I ever got.

MrsNWL · 08-05-2010, 11:24 AM

One of the things we have started to do when my husband leaves for work is have one of Basil's favorite toys in hand so that when Basil comes running around the corner of the house, my husband gives him the toy and they play for about two minutes and Basil seems happy with that scenario. When Basil jumps up on me, if I do not get down on his level quick enough, hey, I'm getting older and stiffer, I just put his feet down on the ground and talk to him and lots of petting. We do not have an issue with the food because Basil is an outside dog. We have over 1/2 acre fenced yard and he has full run of the yard. We do have two cats which are inside 100% and Basil would like to play with the guys but as they do not know what a dog is, (they were raised by our soft-coated wheaten terrier) we do not think it would be wise to put the three together at this time.

Tex Gore · 08-05-2010, 02:12 PM

Thank you all for the advice - it sounds as though prevention is easier than cure. The gate thing is fine; it gives me an excuse to get lots of big noisy tools out and hack around for several days to make a twisted gnarled thing that resembles a gate (the one we have up is temporary at the moment), and Edwin doesn't seem afraid of Moon, just can't really be bothered with her. If she gets too 'enthusiastic' he's got a hook like Henry Cooper anyway (and a hat like Tommy Cooper).

I certainly had no illusions that Moon would be anything like our old Lab; had I wanted that, I'd have got another Lab (had my wife not been 'involved' in the decision anyway). I was simply making the point that we had been spoiled - even by 'Good Lab' standards she was a remarkable dog - other than having an extra stomach where her brain should have been, and that is one way in which the two of them are exactly the same.

I've been in all day today, and we've been trying the approach of making a point of ignoring her when she jumps, then praising her after she gives up - and it seems to be taking hold. Certainly she will stay down when she's told to. She even left off running for the cat on command, and she's starting to wait when told before running after treats I throw. So I guess progress, however slow, is still progress.

Do I see that one of the respondents has NINE of these ruddy things? That's shocked me into silence. I'm of for a pint with Edwin.

TG

Soundtrack · 08-05-2010, 03:54 PM

Actually, at the moment I have 14, but there isn't enough room in my signature to list the puppies.

Mikey T · 08-05-2010, 07:16 PM

Soundtrack

Very disapointed in post, It is dishartening find training advice delivered in gramatical correct sentence with words spelled correctly an done in a suscinct manner not coming close to post length limit. If this keeps other this could become the accepted norm

Just one thing to add As an eight month the dog is an adolesent want with that all the behavioral issues normally associated of mamailian adolescence not much different that human teenagers, Distructive chewing for the vast majority of dogs is more of a phase than a permenant behavior most out grow it, it is simply a matter of living through it.

Puppy Adolscence - or Demon Spawn

Quote:

Every puppy of every breed -- and every adolescent of every species that raises its young -- goes through the same thing at adolescence. Adolescence is an important, necessary transition period between childhood and adulthood. As infants, these creatures were completely helpless, completely dependent upon their mothers for everything -- food, comfort, safety. In childhood, the creatures begin practicing the skills they'll need later.
However, they do it right there with mom in sight, so mom can protect or help as necessary. They instinctively know they aren't able to take care of themselves, so they stick close.
The eventual goal is, of course, adulthood. Complete independence. Mom won't be there to make decisions -- or to alleviate them of responsibility for their mistakes. The real world will be applying consequences, and those can be harsh (even fatal). The animal will, perhaps, become a parent herself, and must have all the knowledge and skills to raise the next generation. Adolescence is the transition between the safe practice of childhood and the independent, butt-on-the-line reality of adulthood. Adolescence is the time when "Because I said so" simply isn't good enough anymore -- Nature *demands* that they test boundaries and consequences and decide for themselves what decisions they want to make. It's not dominance or rebellion. It's growing up

And given the Mirriam was negligent in provided supporting links I take that task on for her.

Doggie manipulation
WHY NOT TAKE CANDY FROM A BABY? (If he lets you!)
Examines manipulation as part of social life, and the dog's need for clear boundaries & leadership.

"essence of the Basset!"
Hard to Train?

Chasing the cat, counter surfing fall under the general behavioral problems of dogs being dogs. Especial scent hounts that were bred to chase and track small game. ie, food, their next meal. When going against instictual behaviors one needs to be realistic in how much they can actual change the behavior.

Instinctive drift

Quote:

the tendency of an organism to revert to instinctive behaviors that can interfere with the conditioned response. The concept originated with B. F. Skinner's former students Keller and Marian Breland. :

That the tendency of instinctive behavior to effect learned ones.

Instinctive Drift Bob Bailey

Basset Momma · 08-05-2010, 09:35 PM

Mike - you crack me up! All the advice given was great... we have 3... and just shake our heads and smile at their antics...

Marcia · 08-06-2010, 04:02 PM

We have a doggie exclusion gate with a cat sized door in it. You can find them in catalogs. All kitty necessities are kept behind it. The dogs and cats themselves get along fine, but the bassets do have a taste for "kitty roca". Ewwww. Actually, the cats torment the dogs more than the other way 'round.

08-05-2010, 04:26 AM	#1 (permalink)
Tex Gore Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Cheshire, UK Posts: 3	Advice appreciated (before I go bald) Aye up, We have an 8-month old Basset pup called Maggie Moon. Moon is, for the most part, a good dog and is an expert at manipulating her owners with doleful looks and innocent presentation of tummies to be tickled, etc. We've made some good progress I think; she is house-trained (she will go outside if the door is left open, and will ask if the door is closed), she doesn't bark when on her own or overnight, she will walk happily off her leash without running off (and will stay if told to) and doesn't pull when on the leash. On the whole, she's a lovely little dog. There are, however, a couple of things we simply cannot seem to resolve. I guess we've been spoiled in the past with our old dog; a Labrador, who was trained to do just about anything and never put a paw wrong, but nonetheless it's frustrating that we cannot seem to find a way to stop this behaviour in Moon. The first thing is jumping. Maggie bounces like a space-hopper in a spring factory. She jumps up at us, which we are dealing with slowly I think by ignoring it and praising her after she stops, but she jumps up at our kitchen surfaces and has stolen stuff from up there on the rare occasion we've forgotten to move it. We simply cannot seem to stop her doing this. Secondly she chases our poor aged cat, Edwin. If she catches him she doesn't do anything - in fact she appears to be trying to give Edwin a hug, however he's not especially enamoured with Moon and she will often get a furry right-hook for her trouble, but this doesn't seem to put her off. We don't like her chasing Edwin as he's getting on in years now, and he doesn't like it. She does understand the 'leave' command - for example she will sit and wait by her food without touching it whilst we tell her to 'leave' but the same command doesn't seem to work when it comes to the cat. The last thing is, despite being told constantly, her going upstairs and stealing Edwin's food, and generally making a mess. We just cannot seem to stop her. We've fitted a baby-gate now at the bottom of the stairs, but whenever we forget and leave it open (or sometimes as we open it to get up the stairs) she'll shoot up - again. If she's left to wander the house unsupervised (i.e. we're not in the same room as her) she can be quite destructive. Yesterday she ate the wife's Wisteria, which didn't go down at all well (for the wife, or the dog). I appreciate that the Basset is a characteristically stubborn breed, but whereas with our old Lab we always felt that fundamentally she would do what we told her, with Moon we feel that whereas she is often obedient, ultimately she'll do what she wants! Any tips or advice gratefully received, before I tear what's left of my hair out.

08-05-2010, 03:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
Soundtrack Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,581	Actually, at the moment I have 14, but there isn't enough room in my signature to list the puppies. __________________ Rosie-Ch Soundtrack Cracklin' Rose CGN AGN RA Am RN TT Melody-Ch Soundtrack Unchained Melody TT Sailor-Ch Soundtrack Expedition Sailor RN TT Chili-Ch Soundtrack Spice Up Your Life Curry-Ch Soundtrack Canadian Brass Pepper-Ch Pennieslogon Living La Vida Loca CGN Vina-Ch Soundtrack Grand Illusion Leila-Ch Soundtrack Almost Paradise Deela-Ch Soundtrack Wink Of An Eye Hermione - Soundtrack Spellbound Eowyn - Soundtrack Rain Dance

08-05-2010, 09:35 PM	#9 (permalink)
Basset Momma Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: West Texas Posts: 2,305	Mike - you crack me up! All the advice given was great... we have 3... and just shake our heads and smile at their antics... __________________ -Wendy Mom to Samantha, Jake, Cuddy, Frodo, & Indy

08-06-2010, 04:02 PM	#10 (permalink)
Marcia Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Escondido, CA, USA Posts: 922	We have a doggie exclusion gate with a cat sized door in it. You can find them in catalogs. All kitty necessities are kept behind it. The dogs and cats themselves get along fine, but the bassets do have a taste for "kitty roca". Ewwww. Actually, the cats torment the dogs more than the other way 'round. __________________ Loving Slave to Sally, Bliss, Waldo & Chloe kitties, and watched over by Daisy Mae and Rocky ATB

08-05-2010, 07:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
jmwolff Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Allentown PA Posts: 51	Well I hope someone can help you with the food thing, but I have to say the way we overcame this was by never leaving food where Bailey could reach it, and everyone who came to our house knew this rule...because if you didn't learn it you lost it. I talked to a Breeder recently who refered to some of the dogs as "counter cruisers" which made me laugh because that was EXACTLY what Bailey did. I hope it's not one of those hopeless basset traits because I have two more coming! But even the 3 yo announces "somebody watch my food" before she leaves the table. As for the jumping up, I was taught in the training classes we took to step towards the dog when they jump up on you, rather than step back or push them off. I also keep the cat food up high were Bailey couldn't reach it, and the litter box turned so he couldn't snack on the poop....which now that he is gone I see he must have been doing anyway judging by the increase in poop output in the litter box.

08-05-2010, 09:56 AM	#4 (permalink)
Lightning&Stomps Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Versailles, Ky. Posts: 1,203	Lightning and my cat get along great, but they do play rough sometimes, so I always make sure the cat has an escape route. Most of the time, Lightning is restricted to half the house. I put up baby gates, and I keep them high enough off the floor so that the cat can get underneath to safety. (In the interest of fairness, Lightning has dog doors so he can escape the cat when he needs to.) In general, I would recommend you restrict your dog's access to the entire house as it gives him less access to things he can destroy and/or eat. When I got bassets, I learned that I had to think like a basset and "basset-proof" the house, which means nothing left in their reach that I don't mind seeing eaten, the cushions on chairs that I want to keep turned up so that they can't get on the furniture, the cat's food in an area that they can't get to, dog doors aplenty, etc. etc. etc. It took a LONG time to figure all that out. And always keep in mind: A tired basset is a good basset. That's probably the most important advice I ever got.

08-05-2010, 11:24 AM	#5 (permalink)
MrsNWL Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Rural area in So. Ca. Posts: 6	One of the things we have started to do when my husband leaves for work is have one of Basil's favorite toys in hand so that when Basil comes running around the corner of the house, my husband gives him the toy and they play for about two minutes and Basil seems happy with that scenario. When Basil jumps up on me, if I do not get down on his level quick enough, hey, I'm getting older and stiffer, I just put his feet down on the ground and talk to him and lots of petting. We do not have an issue with the food because Basil is an outside dog. We have over 1/2 acre fenced yard and he has full run of the yard. We do have two cats which are inside 100% and Basil would like to play with the guys but as they do not know what a dog is, (they were raised by our soft-coated wheaten terrier) we do not think it would be wise to put the three together at this time.

08-05-2010, 02:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
Tex Gore Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Cheshire, UK Posts: 3	Thank you all for the advice - it sounds as though prevention is easier than cure. The gate thing is fine; it gives me an excuse to get lots of big noisy tools out and hack around for several days to make a twisted gnarled thing that resembles a gate (the one we have up is temporary at the moment), and Edwin doesn't seem afraid of Moon, just can't really be bothered with her. If she gets too 'enthusiastic' he's got a hook like Henry Cooper anyway (and a hat like Tommy Cooper). I certainly had no illusions that Moon would be anything like our old Lab; had I wanted that, I'd have got another Lab (had my wife not been 'involved' in the decision anyway). I was simply making the point that we had been spoiled - even by 'Good Lab' standards she was a remarkable dog - other than having an extra stomach where her brain should have been, and that is one way in which the two of them are exactly the same. I've been in all day today, and we've been trying the approach of making a point of ignoring her when she jumps, then praising her after she gives up - and it seems to be taking hold. Certainly she will stay down when she's told to. She even left off running for the cat on command, and she's starting to wait when told before running after treats I throw. So I guess progress, however slow, is still progress. Do I see that one of the respondents has NINE of these ruddy things? That's shocked me into silence. I'm of for a pint with Edwin. TG

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