Who's Boss

Welshtyke · 07-24-2010, 07:31 PM

We have had our bassets 4mnths from rescue, and have had issues with in appropriate behaviour. Have been through some of the threads on this website there has been some interesting, especially the links below originally posted by MikeyT.

To me the interesting fact is the whole "alpha male" issues, which appears to be a myth that needs dispelling.

Is the case that the idea of dominance no longer plays a key role rather by association and positive reinforcement of a consistent theme we expect our dogs to accept a set of rules. As you would expect your children to behave rather than being dominant over them, hence cutting them a bit of slack and allowing them to be their own dog

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The Macho Myth

Mikey T · 07-24-2010, 10:57 PM

FWIW the alpha model in wolves is dieing much quicker than it is in dogs especial among those who study them.

What Ever Happened to the Term Alpha Wolf

Quote:

Europe and North America never mentioned the term alpha in a long article on breeding pairs of wolves. The Loss on Wolves,” was published in a 2008 issue of the Journal of Wildlife Management. In the 448-page, 2003 book Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation, edited by Luigi Boitani and myself and written by 23 authors, alpha is mentioned in only six places and then only to explain why the term is outdated. What gives?

This change in terminology reflects an important shift in our thinking about wolf social behavior. Rather than viewing a wolf pack as a group of animals organized with a “top dog” that fought its way to the top, or a male-female pair of such aggressive wolves, science has come to understand that most wolf packs are merely family groups formed exactly the same way as human families are formed. That is, maturing male and
female wolves from different packs disperse, travel around until they find each other and an area vacant of other wolves but with adequate prey, court, mate, and produce their own litter of pups.

Alpha Status, Dominance and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs

Quote:

The prevailing view of a wolf (Canis lupus) pack is that of a group of
individuals ever vying for dominance but held in check by the "alpha" pair, the alpha
male and the alpha female. Most research on the social dynamics of wolf packs, however,
has been conducted on non-natural assortments of captive wolves. Here I describe the
wolf-pack social order as it occurs in nature, discuss the alpha concept and social
dominance and submission, and present data on the precise relationships among members
in free-living packs based on a literature review and 13 summers of observations of
wolves on Ellesmere Island, Northwest Territories, Canada. I conclude that the typical
wolf pack is a family, with the adult parents guiding the activities of the group in a
division-of-labor system in which the female predominates primarily in such activities as
pup care and defense and the male primarily during foraging and food-provisioning and
the travels associated with them

A tough read but those interested if dog do not arrange themself in a hierarchal pack structure then how do the prevent squabbles and dissagreement in a social setting see
The Social Organization of the Domestic Dog
A Longitudinal Study of Domestic Canine Behavior and the Ontogeny of Canine Social Systems

Quote:

The theory that a hierarchy based on dominance relationships is the organizing principle in social groups of the sort canis lupus is a human projection that needs replacing. Furthermore, the model has unjustifiably been transferred from its original
place in the discussion of the behavior of wolves to the discussion of the behavior of domestic dogs (canis familiaris). This paper presents a new, more adequate model of how familiaris organizes itself when in groups. This paper is based on a longitudinal study of a permanent group of five randomly acquired dogs living in their natural habitat, as they interact with each other within the group, with newcomers of various species who joined the group, and with fleetingly met individuals of various species in their outside environment. This study shows that the existence of the phenomenon "dominance" is questionable, but that in any case "dominance" does not operate as a principle in the social organization of domestic dogs. Dominance hierarchies do not exist and are in fact impossible to construct without entering the realm of human projection and fantasy. The hypotheses were tested by repeatedly starting systems at chaos and observing whether the model
predicted the evolution of each new system. The study shows that domestic canine social groups must be viewed as complex autopoietic systems, whose primary systemic behavior is to gravitate as quickly as possible to a stable division of the fitness landscape so that each animal present is sitting on a fitness hill unchallenged by other group members.

for using the dominance model in training

Postion Statement On the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals
by American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior

Quote:

The AVSAB recommends that veterinarians not refer clients to trainers or behavior consultants who coach and advocate dominance hierarchy theory and the subsequent confrontational training that follows from it.
• Instead, the AVSAB emphasizes that animal training, behavior prevention strategies, and behavior modification programs should follow the scientifically based guidelines of positive reinforcement, operant conditioning, classical conditioning, desensitization, and counter conditioning

[ Experts Say Dominance-Based Dog Training Techniques Made Popular by Television Shows Can Contribute to Dog Bites

“Pack Leader” Myths
Daniel Estep, Ph.D. and Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D.
Animal Behavior Associates, Inc. - Pet Behavior Wellness Experts

Why Won't Dominance Die?
Association of Pet Behavior Counsellors

Quote:

To be at the top of the pack with total dominance would make you the “alpha”, with all the esteem that entails, therefore dogs will strive for dominance unless you beat them to it. It’s a neat explanation.

Except that none of it actually bears scientific scrutiny. Prof Richard Dawkins described self replicating ideas as “memes”(1) that live in our minds and pass from one to another through no reason other than their popularity, or catchiness. Some are harmless, like that annoying song you keep humming long after you’ve decided you hate it, but others can be positively harmful, like the idea that combined MMR jabs cause autism, which continues to prevent many children benefiting from the protection they provide.

The “pack” and “dominance” theory of domestic dogs is a harmful meme. It prevents many owners understanding their dogs, causes untold misery for both and is perpetuated by well-meaning but uninformed dog trainers around the world. It is proving extremely resistant to extinction.

Welshtyke · 07-25-2010, 02:33 PM

What about this scenario. Your hound is on a peice of furniture it is allowed on, however you want the hound off for some valid reason, but the dog will not budge.

As far as I can see you have three options:-

1) physically remove the hound from the seat by maybe dragging it off

2) drive the dog off by say using a water pistol

3) or use a bribe such as treat, but they have to sit before receiving the treat.

Assuming the Alpha Male Theory is flawed option 3 is not not compromised since we are still in an authoratative position because we still control the food source, and the rest of facilities that makes the hounds home.

dodolah · 07-25-2010, 03:31 PM

I cannot say that this is true for all bassets, but so far, all my basset owner friends seem to laugh and agree with my assessment (So, take it with a grain of salt please

).

With a basset (especially mine), only option 3 is valid hahahaha
I tried spraying with water.. absolutely no effect. he just come to you and start licking the bottle. I tried hiding the bottle behind my back and act as if the water squirt from the environment. He just ran to my back and found out i am hiding the bottle behind my back; and, it quickly becomes a game of "find where he hide his spray bottle." I tried putting a bit of vinegar in the water (recommended by the trainer) to produce some unpleasant smell and spray him (not directly to his nose and eyes obviously). Still no effect.. he looked at me weird almost as if saying "what is that in the bottle? oooh is it something that I can eat?"

Now.. if I have a treat on my hand, he becomes easily the most obedient dog in the world. Learn to exploit a Basset weakness.. and most likely, it's food. Keep the NILF (Nothing In Life is Free) program and you will be fine. Ask him to do something before you show some attention and give him some treat.

I am glad that I have a friend who gets the dominance theory out of my head from watching too many Cesar Millan's video. She refers me to check victoria stillwell clips and actually, from all the research of positive reinforcement leads me to this forum

. Now, i don't even use the term alpha, beta, omega, or whatever..

Welshtyke · 07-25-2010, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodolah

I am glad that I have a friend who gets the dominance theory out of my head from watching too many Cesar Millan's video. She refers me to check victoria stillwell clips and actually, from all the research of positive reinforcement leads me to this forum

. Now, i don't even use the term alpha, beta, omega, or whatever..

This is a good forum. It will be interesting to see MikeyT response. I am pleased to see the dominance theory being debunked. I want to live as one with my dogs with set of rules for us all to adhere to

Mikey T · 07-25-2010, 08:25 PM

First off the basic premise is a bit off you do not need "a valid" reason to remove the dog from the furniture. And most importantly you need to train the dog before hand to avoid the situtation which you describe so the dog will willing leave. Keeping the Family Dog Off the Furniture

#3 is actual not as benign as you seem to think, It can actual overtime undermine training. Useing food as a bribe, is the problem most "non food" trainer have with food. I.e food must be present for the dog to work etc.

see Rewards, Lures & Bribes
Luring
How to Fade Your Lure
Quantum-Leaps

Dog training tip of the day- Fading a Lure (while teaching SPIN)

The Power of Positive Training

Quote:

One of the biggest complaints you'll hear about positive training is ask. This is only true if you don't make an effort to fade your lures -- That is to get your dog to respond to your cues when their is no food in sight. If you don't fade lures fairly early in your training program, you and your dog both can become dependant on the presence of food to get the behavior to happen.

#3 fallS into the much broader catagory of an incompatable alternate behavior that is more rewarding desirable. There are other options as well such as making the furniture less inviting to stay on.

It must be noted the problems with number one is simply that it encourages the dog to reacted negatively. Think if you were to attend a meeting and were sitting at a chair for that meeting. You Boss comes up to grabs you by the collar and tries to drag you from the chair because you are in the wrong chair. How would you react. Slap his hand away? yell at him? is the dog really being aggressive when they react the same way or are they acting apporpriately to rude behavior, in this case your rude behavior?. Also think what useing force teaches the dog. That is the use of force is appropriate, not something we want to encourage in dogs.
Keeping a Dog OFF the Furniture

Quote:

For larger dogs who won't be harmed by getting down on their own, it is safer and more effective to lure and/or cue the dog to get off the furniture, and reward the dog for being back on the floor. People often arouse aggression in dogs by angrily ejecting them from furniture, which can both trigger defense drives in dogs and cause pain if the dog has an orthopedic problem. Orthopedic problems, both inherited and injury related, are so common in dogs that this is a frequent cause of a dog reacting aggressively when forced to get up from a comfortable position and jump down to the floor.

#2 is the other side of the behavioral training coin vs #3 that is punishment vs Reinforcement.
Of course this assumes the dog was first "cued" to get off the furniture. Simply using "punishment" to get the dog off the furniture with no other prompting is not effective unless it is consitently employed as in dog never on the furniture. When the dog is allowed sometime, it is never going to be able to figure out all the difference situation when it is or is not appropriate for it to be on the furniture, and you come off as arbitary and not to be trusted.

Using punishment can be effective but it comes with a lot more risks
Punishment- How not to do it

Quote:

While these examples of punishment are relatively straightforward, there is a caution that accompanies any use of aversive control. The behavior you punish may not be the only one affected. You may wipe out a number of desirable behaviors unintentionally or create more problems than you started with. For instance, chasing small children is a typical, but objectionable canine behavior. If you are expecting a number of small bipeds at your home you may use balloons to punish chasing behavior. First, inflate some balloons and pop them in your dog's face. Once Fifi is totally appalled by the sight of balloons, simply pin one on each of the children. Fifi is not going to approach any "wee ones" as long as they wear the dreaded balloons.

If you think this sounds like a foolproof solution, think again. Your first concern may be that your dog may become afraid of all loud noises. Second, she may become afraid of children, and third, she may become terrified of balloon-like objects such as watermelons and cantaloupe.

Another difficulty with this type of training is that intentionally terrifying an animal is a stumbling block for many owners. Even though they regularly punish and terrify the pet in anger, to do something in such a coldly calculating fashion is emotionally difficult. Ironically, it is the precisely executed punishment that is more effective and more humane. When used correctly, punishment can be reduced to a rarely used, highly effective tool for creating inhibitions.

leadership is not dominance
Relationship based Approach to Training

Leadership Basics

How Much Does Your Dog's Cooperation Weigh?
Physical struggles aren't the point in relationship based training.

MOVING BEYOND THE DOMINANCE MYTH: TOWARD AN UNDERSTANDING OF TRAINING AS PARTNERSHIP

Leadership Qualities Dogs Respect

Dominance Versus Leadership in Dog Training

Dominance or Leadership with Dogs. Do We or Don’t We

Quote:

And have you noticed, nobody talks about dominating cats?

Leadership-and-the-family-dog

Quote:

Author and speaker Orrin Woodward also was quoted as saying, "When you resort to force, you have reached your leadership limit." Force and intimidation can result in obedience, but it doesn't bring respect. Respect is earned, not forced, and a key component of strong leadership.

Leadership versus Dominance

Quote:

When a human or another dog reacts, rather than initiates, that individual is following. Interestingly, this "reaction" is the very hallmark of application of "dominance" techniques-- wait for the dog to screw up, then intervene. Who is leading who?

Waiting for the car to run off the road before steering is obviously a bad idea. But somehow "because dogs aren't like us", this approach is often attempted.

Sadly, I've seen a well-intentioned "positive" approach used in the same way. The dog jumps up, THEN the person asks for a SIT. This is ineffective for so many reasons, now "positive" training has been misidentified as the cause of ineffectiveness.

The key to leadership for your canine pals is developing the ability to read the current situation, anticipate what behaviors come next, identify "crossroad" moments when steering is needed, and a toolbox full of ways to elicit the behavior you want BEFORE an undesirable behavior emerges.

and while not from an article on leadership it reinforces the premise of being proactive not reactive
Insights Into Puppy Mouthing

Quote:

90% of the time if I clearly define something for owners and ask what their dog will likely do, they have a wonderfully detailed knowledge of what their dog will probably do. But most people don't look at the perimeters objectively or with clarity and worse they fall into a pattern of waiting until the dog has done the thing they don't want that they knew was probably going to happen. They then respond to what the dog did even though they could have predicted the Undesired response a week ahead of time.

Welshtyke · 07-27-2010, 05:44 PM

Thanks Mikey for some excellent replies, some as you say a tough read. There is a lot out there and a bit bewildering, but what a facinating subject.

We have tried some of the tips in the following link you suggested, "touch wood" seems to work.
Leadership Qualities Dogs Respect | Positive Petzine

Have order some books you have previously suggested, I will just take my time now to absorb as much as I can.

OpenSky · 07-27-2010, 08:46 PM

I am!

Haha but seriously, I don't believe the whole "alpha theory" myself. I don't need to scare my dog into behaving and obeying by acting like his mother. I'm not his mother, I am his owner. I'm not a dog, I'm a human. I control his food, water, shelter, fun and everything.

As far as the bribing goes, no I don't do it. A treat isn't even offered until I get the behavior I want. And yes, corrections are used by me. So he knows if he behaves he gets rewarded, if not he's punished.

I'll probably come back to clarify things in another post.

dodolah · 07-27-2010, 09:55 PM

With all this talk, how do you give proper correction to a dog that does not respond to water, vinegar, sound, and clicking sound?
I swear I cannot correct my dog with all those tricks. The only thing I can do is by luring him with food.

bubbad · 07-27-2010, 11:59 PM

I had a litter of puppies a long time ago , one paticular male had dominate aggressive tendencies. I would hold him on his back in my arms, he would growl,snarl and carry on. I knew if the wrong person tried to bring up this puppy he/she would be in for a fight,possibly bad enough to be bitten. These traits are not grown out of, but grown into. I kept this puppy and worked with him,I didn't need to scare him,but I needed to let him know in ways he could understand that this behavior was not allowed. He turned out to be the nicest dog but I hate to think what could have happened to him had I placed him at 8 or 10 weeks of age. One time we had an English Mastiff,sweetest thing ever,I invited a person to bring their Mastiff over to my house so they could see mine. I had a dominate bitch who was the greatest mom basset ever,(I loved to watch her disipline her kids)she was there when the people with their Mastiff came in,she went to check out the other dog, stopped in front of this dog and in one split second she went ,"RUFF", and put this 90lb Mastiff to the ground with her short stubby leg resting on the Mastiff's shoulder and did not let her move till she was ready to let her move. Another time some folks had an Australian Shepherd pup 6 weeks old that was nasty. He bit them every time they picked him up or tried to touch him in any way. Brought him to my house my girl laid on the floor and when he got snippy with her she put him right to the ground ,the more he fought her the longer she held him there,the longer she held him there the more he came back after her when she let him up. After about 20 min of this he gave in to her and was so tired he didn't bother trying to bite when they picked him up. My instructions to them was to do what my bitch did when he got too much of an attitude. If you do not correct behavior in a way that a dog will understand what is the point. My dogs see me as Alpha therefore they understand what it is I require of them. No scare tactics. No hurting them in any way. I have no problem with Victoria's way but I practice more of Ceasar's way(no pun) because it works for me. I don't have any problems in any area with my dogs because I raise them to think I am God.

07-24-2010, 07:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
Welshtyke Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Monmouthshire, UK Posts: 62	Who's Boss We have had our bassets 4mnths from rescue, and have had issues with in appropriate behaviour. Have been through some of the threads on this website there has been some interesting, especially the links below originally posted by MikeyT. To me the interesting fact is the whole "alpha male" issues, which appears to be a myth that needs dispelling. Is the case that the idea of dominance no longer plays a key role rather by association and positive reinforcement of a consistent theme we expect our dogs to accept a set of rules. As you would expect your children to behave rather than being dominant over them, hence cutting them a bit of slack and allowing them to be their own dog ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The Macho Myth

07-25-2010, 02:33 PM	#3 (permalink)
Welshtyke Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Monmouthshire, UK Posts: 62	What about this scenario. Your hound is on a peice of furniture it is allowed on, however you want the hound off for some valid reason, but the dog will not budge. As far as I can see you have three options:- 1) physically remove the hound from the seat by maybe dragging it off 2) drive the dog off by say using a water pistol 3) or use a bribe such as treat, but they have to sit before receiving the treat. Assuming the Alpha Male Theory is flawed option 3 is not not compromised since we are still in an authoratative position because we still control the food source, and the rest of facilities that makes the hounds home. Last edited by Welshtyke; 07-25-2010 at 03:04 PM. Reason: wording

07-25-2010, 03:31 PM	#4 (permalink)
dodolah Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 62	I cannot say that this is true for all bassets, but so far, all my basset owner friends seem to laugh and agree with my assessment (So, take it with a grain of salt please ). With a basset (especially mine), only option 3 is valid hahahaha I tried spraying with water.. absolutely no effect. he just come to you and start licking the bottle. I tried hiding the bottle behind my back and act as if the water squirt from the environment. He just ran to my back and found out i am hiding the bottle behind my back; and, it quickly becomes a game of "find where he hide his spray bottle." I tried putting a bit of vinegar in the water (recommended by the trainer) to produce some unpleasant smell and spray him (not directly to his nose and eyes obviously). Still no effect.. he looked at me weird almost as if saying "what is that in the bottle? oooh is it something that I can eat?" Now.. if I have a treat on my hand, he becomes easily the most obedient dog in the world. Learn to exploit a Basset weakness.. and most likely, it's food. Keep the NILF (Nothing In Life is Free) program and you will be fine. Ask him to do something before you show some attention and give him some treat. I am glad that I have a friend who gets the dominance theory out of my head from watching too many Cesar Millan's video. She refers me to check victoria stillwell clips and actually, from all the research of positive reinforcement leads me to this forum . Now, i don't even use the term alpha, beta, omega, or whatever.. Last edited by dodolah; 07-25-2010 at 03:40 PM.

07-27-2010, 05:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
Welshtyke Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Monmouthshire, UK Posts: 62	Thanks Mikey for some excellent replies, some as you say a tough read. There is a lot out there and a bit bewildering, but what a facinating subject. We have tried some of the tips in the following link you suggested, "touch wood" seems to work. Leadership Qualities Dogs Respect \| Positive Petzine Have order some books you have previously suggested, I will just take my time now to absorb as much as I can.

07-27-2010, 08:46 PM	#8 (permalink)
OpenSky Junior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 9	I am! Haha but seriously, I don't believe the whole "alpha theory" myself. I don't need to scare my dog into behaving and obeying by acting like his mother. I'm not his mother, I am his owner. I'm not a dog, I'm a human. I control his food, water, shelter, fun and everything. As far as the bribing goes, no I don't do it. A treat isn't even offered until I get the behavior I want. And yes, corrections are used by me. So he knows if he behaves he gets rewarded, if not he's punished. I'll probably come back to clarify things in another post.

07-27-2010, 09:55 PM	#9 (permalink)
dodolah Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 62	With all this talk, how do you give proper correction to a dog that does not respond to water, vinegar, sound, and clicking sound? I swear I cannot correct my dog with all those tricks. The only thing I can do is by luring him with food.

07-27-2010, 11:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
bubbad Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Boiling Springs,Pa Posts: 1,347	I had a litter of puppies a long time ago , one paticular male had dominate aggressive tendencies. I would hold him on his back in my arms, he would growl,snarl and carry on. I knew if the wrong person tried to bring up this puppy he/she would be in for a fight,possibly bad enough to be bitten. These traits are not grown out of, but grown into. I kept this puppy and worked with him,I didn't need to scare him,but I needed to let him know in ways he could understand that this behavior was not allowed. He turned out to be the nicest dog but I hate to think what could have happened to him had I placed him at 8 or 10 weeks of age. One time we had an English Mastiff,sweetest thing ever,I invited a person to bring their Mastiff over to my house so they could see mine. I had a dominate bitch who was the greatest mom basset ever,(I loved to watch her disipline her kids)she was there when the people with their Mastiff came in,she went to check out the other dog, stopped in front of this dog and in one split second she went ,"RUFF", and put this 90lb Mastiff to the ground with her short stubby leg resting on the Mastiff's shoulder and did not let her move till she was ready to let her move. Another time some folks had an Australian Shepherd pup 6 weeks old that was nasty. He bit them every time they picked him up or tried to touch him in any way. Brought him to my house my girl laid on the floor and when he got snippy with her she put him right to the ground ,the more he fought her the longer she held him there,the longer she held him there the more he came back after her when she let him up. After about 20 min of this he gave in to her and was so tired he didn't bother trying to bite when they picked him up. My instructions to them was to do what my bitch did when he got too much of an attitude. If you do not correct behavior in a way that a dog will understand what is the point. My dogs see me as Alpha therefore they understand what it is I require of them. No scare tactics. No hurting them in any way. I have no problem with Victoria's way but I practice more of Ceasar's way(no pun) because it works for me. I don't have any problems in any area with my dogs because I raise them to think I am God.

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