inbred?!

FloppyToby · 04-28-2010, 09:46 AM

i got toby's 3 generation pedigree in the mail yesterday(woohoo!!) only to find that he is inbred! apparently Clydophus Cadoodlyhopper fancied one of his own pups...is this gonna be a problem for toby? also next to one of his family tree members it said AKC DNA or something. whats that mean?

Dean · 04-28-2010, 10:29 AM

Generally, one time is not a real problem, but there breeders who keep breeding back to close relatives for many generations
The difference between inbreeding and line breeding ???
If you do it, it's inbreeding
If I do it, it's line breeding

gsally · 04-28-2010, 07:49 PM

So how do you REALLY know when you've found a good breeder? As someone who has not and never will be exceptionally knowledgeable about breeding, bassets, etc. I feel pretty inadequate to determine "who" is a good breeder. Is there a way to know about inbreeding before you purchase, or do you only find out after the papers arrive as in the case of Toby?

Dean · 04-28-2010, 08:30 PM

Unfortunately, even the papers, which a breeder should be able to show you, don't really mean much ---- no registry is any more accurate than the person who sent in for the papers. Until there is a registry that requires DNA testing of every dog, none of the pedigrees will be guaranteed. Some people say that a good breeder is active in showing their hounds ---- what about those of us who don't show, but compete in field trials ???
Some " responsible breeders" keep the pups in kennels with very little human contact --these pups are frequently shy and timid.

FloppyToby · 04-29-2010, 08:28 AM

the lady i got toby from wasn't really even a breeder. i think she was keeping 2 bassets as pets and then one thing led to another and then they had puppies. but i dont know why she wouldnt have had her 2 bassets fixed, especially having a male and a female. well anyways toby was born november 20, i took him home december 23. kind of early if you ask me. the vet says he's healthy though, so i can't complain about it.

Soundtrack · 04-29-2010, 11:32 AM

It probably won't be a problem for him.

Inbreeding is simply a tool. Used properly, it can help set desireable traits and eliminate undesireable ones (like health issues). Done randomly or by someone who doesn't know what they are doing, it can lead to disaster in the long run, but a single inbreeding is not normally a problem. POOR breeding is a problem.

And yes, 5 weeks is WAY too young for a puppy to leave the litter. Good breeders will keep the pup from 8-12 weeks before sending them to new homes.

FloppyToby · 04-29-2010, 11:47 AM

i guess i was just thinking of inbreeding in human terms and didn't realize it might be different in dogs. also i think some of his parents parents may have been brother and sister. they were from the same kennel. crazy!

hig4s · 04-29-2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

- what about those of us who don't show, but compete in field trials ???
Some " responsible breeders" keep the pups in kennels with very little human contact --these pups are frequently shy and timid.

Field trials, or any competition should be considered showing. It is an effort to bring out the best, and improve the breed.

And I don't call those responsible breeders.

Mikey T · 04-29-2010, 08:25 PM

Quote:

i was just thinking of inbreeding in human terms and didn't realize it might be different in dogs

it is no different in humans than in dogs. Inbredding tends to reduce heterogenius pairs of genes. This means traits are going to be more likely reproducible. And it can eliminate certain genetic abnormalities at the same time if an adnormality exisits it is more likely to be expresessed. Many if not most genetic deseases require two deffective genes, therefore a individual with more homogenius gene pairs (more pairs that are the same) and fewer heterogenius pairs which inbreeding produces tends to increase the expression of those defective genes that exist in that particular line. at the same time it prevents the inclusion of other defective genes as well. It is a tool that has advantages and disadvantages.

Demystifying Inbreeding Coefficients

Inbreeding and linebreeding

Quote:

What does inbreeding (in the genetic sense) do? Basically, it increase the probability that the two copies of any given gene will be identical and derived from the same ancestor. Technically, the animal is homozygous for that gene. The heterozygous animal has some differences in the two copies of the gene Remember that each animal (or plant, for that matter) has two copies of any given gene (two alleles at each locus, if you want to get technical), one derived from the father and one from the mother. If the father and mother are related, there is a chance that the two genes in the offspring are both identical copies contributed by the common ancestor. This is neither good nor bad in itself. Consider, for instance, the gene for PRA (progressive retinal atrophy), which causes progressive blindness. Carriers have normal vision, but if one is mated to another carrier, one in four of the puppies will have PRA and go blind. Inbreeding will increase both the number of affected dogs (bad) and the number of genetically normal dogs (good) at the expense of carriers. Inbreeding can thus bring these undesirable recessive genes to the surface, where they can be removed from the breeding pool.

...For captive breeding populations, the less inbreeding the better, and this is the way the program is used.
In purebred livestock the situtation is a little different - we want homozygosity for those genes which create a desirable similarity to the breed standard. Wright's defense of inbreeding was based on this fact. However, inbreeding tends to remove those heterozygotes which are beneficial (e.g., the MHC) as well as increasing undesirable as well as desirable homozygotes. The practice is most dangerous in the potential increase of homozygous health problems which are not obvious on inspection, but which shorten the life span or decrease the quality of life for the animal.

The Canine Diversity Project

The Ins and Outs of Pedigree Analysis, Genetic Diversity, and Genetic Disease Control

Quote:

Inbreeding significantly increases homozygosity, and therefore uniformity in litters. Inbreeding can increase the expression of both beneficial and detrimental recessive genes through pairing up. If a recessive gene (a) is rare in the population, it will almost always be masked by a dominant gene (A). Through inbreeding, a rare recessive gene (a) can be passed from a heterozygous (Aa) common ancestor through both the sire and dam, creating a homozygous recessive (aa) offspring. Inbreeding does not create undesirable genes, it simply increases the expression of those that are already present in a heterozygous state.

...
Inbreeding can exacerbate a tendency toward disorders controlled by multiple genes, such as hip dysplasia and congenital heart anomalies. Unless you have prior knowledge of what milder linebreedings on the common ancestors have produced, inbreeding may expose your puppies (and puppy buyers) to extraordinary risk of genetic defects. Research has shown that inbreeding depression, or diminished health and viability through inbreeding is directly related to the amount of detrimental recessive genes present. Some lines thrive with inbreeding, and some do not.

...
Some breed clubs advocate codes of ethics that discourage linebreeding or inbreeding, as an attempt to increase breed genetic diversity. This position is based on a falsle premise. Inbreeding or linebreeding does not cause the loss of genes from a breed gene pool. It occurs through selection; the use and non-use of offspring. If some breeders linebreed to certain dogs that they favor, and others linebreed to other dogs that they favor, then breed-wide genetic diversity is maintained.

...
The perceived problem of a limited gene pool has caused some breeds to advocate outbreeding of all dogs. Studies in genetic conservation and rare breeds have shown that this practice actually contributes to the loss of genetic diversity. By uniformly crossing all "lines" in a breed, you eliminate the differences between them, and therefore the diversity between individuals. This practice in livestock breeding has significantly reduced diversity, and caused the loss of unique rare breeds. The process of maintaining healthy "lines" or families of dogs, with many breeders crossing between lines and breeding back as they see fit maintains diversity in the gene pool. It is the varied opinion of breeders as to what constitutes the ideal dog, and their selection of breeding stock that maintains breed diversity.

Quote:

Field trials, or any competition should be considered showing

I personnal would limit it to any competition in which the dog was original bred to compete or simulates s sport/activity a dog was oringinally bred to compete/perform. For example breeding bassets for the sport of agility without out other consideration, soon will not be very basset like,.

hig4s · 04-29-2010, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey T

I personally would limit it to any competition in which the dog was original bred to compete or simulates s sport/activity a dog was originally bred to compete/perform. For example breeding bassets for the sport of agility without out other consideration, soon will not be very basset like,.

Yeah, I didn't think to be that specific.

04-28-2010, 09:46 AM	#1 (permalink)
FloppyToby Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 186	inbred?! i got toby's 3 generation pedigree in the mail yesterday(woohoo!!) only to find that he is inbred! apparently Clydophus Cadoodlyhopper fancied one of his own pups...is this gonna be a problem for toby? also next to one of his family tree members it said AKC DNA or something. whats that mean? __________________ A basset is an asset!

04-29-2010, 08:28 AM	#5 (permalink)
FloppyToby Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 186	the lady i got toby from wasn't really even a breeder. i think she was keeping 2 bassets as pets and then one thing led to another and then they had puppies. but i dont know why she wouldnt have had her 2 bassets fixed, especially having a male and a female. well anyways toby was born november 20, i took him home december 23. kind of early if you ask me. the vet says he's healthy though, so i can't complain about it. __________________ A basset is an asset!

04-29-2010, 11:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
Soundtrack Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,581	It probably won't be a problem for him. Inbreeding is simply a tool. Used properly, it can help set desireable traits and eliminate undesireable ones (like health issues). Done randomly or by someone who doesn't know what they are doing, it can lead to disaster in the long run, but a single inbreeding is not normally a problem. POOR breeding is a problem. And yes, 5 weeks is WAY too young for a puppy to leave the litter. Good breeders will keep the pup from 8-12 weeks before sending them to new homes. __________________ Rosie-Ch Soundtrack Cracklin' Rose CGN AGN RA Am RN TT Melody-Ch Soundtrack Unchained Melody TT Sailor-Ch Soundtrack Expedition Sailor RN TT Chili-Ch Soundtrack Spice Up Your Life Curry-Ch Soundtrack Canadian Brass Pepper-Ch Pennieslogon Living La Vida Loca CGN Vina-Ch Soundtrack Grand Illusion Leila-Ch Soundtrack Almost Paradise Deela-Ch Soundtrack Wink Of An Eye Hermione - Soundtrack Spellbound Eowyn - Soundtrack Rain Dance

04-29-2010, 11:47 AM	#7 (permalink)
FloppyToby Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 186	i guess i was just thinking of inbreeding in human terms and didn't realize it might be different in dogs. also i think some of his parents parents may have been brother and sister. they were from the same kennel. crazy! __________________ A basset is an asset!

04-28-2010, 10:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
Dean Senior Member Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Glen Moore, Pa. U.S.A. Posts: 797	Generally, one time is not a real problem, but there breeders who keep breeding back to close relatives for many generations The difference between inbreeding and line breeding ??? If you do it, it's inbreeding If I do it, it's line breeding

04-28-2010, 07:49 PM	#3 (permalink)
gsally Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: PA Posts: 275	So how do you REALLY know when you've found a good breeder? As someone who has not and never will be exceptionally knowledgeable about breeding, bassets, etc. I feel pretty inadequate to determine "who" is a good breeder. Is there a way to know about inbreeding before you purchase, or do you only find out after the papers arrive as in the case of Toby?

04-28-2010, 08:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
Dean Senior Member Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Glen Moore, Pa. U.S.A. Posts: 797	Unfortunately, even the papers, which a breeder should be able to show you, don't really mean much ---- no registry is any more accurate than the person who sent in for the papers. Until there is a registry that requires DNA testing of every dog, none of the pedigrees will be guaranteed. Some people say that a good breeder is active in showing their hounds ---- what about those of us who don't show, but compete in field trials ??? Some " responsible breeders" keep the pups in kennels with very little human contact --these pups are frequently shy and timid.

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