Need Your Opinion on Electronic "Shock" Collars

zag300zx · 04-05-2009, 08:44 PM

I have a 1.5 year old basset named "Libby". She is a very good dog most of the time, and doesn't have a mean bone in her. I've been having some trouble getting her to behave around other people, either when I take her outside, or people come over. Say someone comes over, the doorbell rings, dog gets excited but when she sees the person, she lets out this howl/whine/dying sound as she frantically tries to get as many pets as possible. Meanwhile she is jumping on them and chasing their feet. I usually put her in time out if she gets to that stage. Today I took her out to soccer with me. I had her tied up to a fence while I was playing. I look over and see a 2 year old kid walking over to her and she jumps up basically tackles the kid trying to lick him to death

. Obviously the parent should never had let a kid go up to a strange dog unattended, but never the less I wasn't close enough to stop her. The kid was OK, just startled. Basically when she is around other dogs/people I have a very difficult time controlling her behavior.

I have taken her to training classes (clicker) and the entire time she would whine because she only wanted to play with the other dogs. She did learn the tricks none the less.

After that kid incident I did some research and picked up an electric training collar. So far I haven't had the heart to use it except on myself and while it doesn't feel good, its not painful. It also has a vibrate feature that I hope will be enough to control most behaviors.

What do you guys think of using these? I know most people believe they are inhumane, but as long as they are used correctly they seem to be pretty effective. I am hoping that it will be just enough to deter the dog from jumping and going out of control.

Thanks for your input here.

shallhb · 04-05-2009, 10:31 PM

I honestly don't think you want or need to use an e-collar. First, at 18 months, Libby is still barely out of her puppyhood. This overexhuberant behavior will probably fade *some* on its own as she matures. Second, there's the risk with any aversive the dog will associate the aversive with the stimulus in front of them, not the behavior--for example, becoming afraid of children or strangers because she was punished in their presence. This could lead to fearful behaviors, and that's not good. Sounds like she needs some training that goes beyond clicker training--like teaching an alternative behavior like sit, asking for the sit in the presence of people, and straightforward corrections for failing to sit , using a training (chain) collar, leash and a sharp NO! if she fails to sit. I'd look for a good dog training club in your area--not the Petco/Pet Club training classes--I'll bet they can help you correct the behavior pretty fast.

Soundtrack · 04-06-2009, 09:20 AM

While I think that they do have their place, I don't think it's warranted in this case. What's needed here is more training, more maturity (she's still immature), and better supervision/control of the dog.

Mikey T · 04-06-2009, 09:37 AM

There are times that ecollar are effective and necessary but they are rare. They also come with an high lickly hood of unattended colaterall damage. In this case it is very possible with the use of such a device to create a fear of strangers by using one. Ifevery time a stranger approaches you were to get a painfull shock what would your perceptions of stranger be. It is not that likely a dog will associate its behavior with the shock but rather the circumstance in wich it occured

see <a href="http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf" target="_blank">Position Statement on the
Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals</a> by American Veterinary Society
of Animal Behavior

<a href="http://www.4pawsu.com/avsabpuinshment.pdf" target="_blank">Guidelines on the Use of Punishment for Dealing
with Behavior Problems in Animals</a> by American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior

Quote:

The standard of care for veterinarians specializing in behavior is that punishment is not to be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. Consequently, the AVSAB urges that veterinarians in general practice follow suit. Additionally punishment should only be used when animal owners are made aware of the possible adverse effects. The AVSAB recommends that owners working with trainers who use punishment as a form of behavior modification
in animals choose only those trainers who, without prompting:

1) Can and do articulate the most serious adverse effects associated with punishment

2) Are capable of judging when these adverse effects are occurring over the short and/or long term

3) Can explain how they would attempt to reverse any adverse effects if or when they occur.
The standard of care for veterinarians specializing in behavior is that punishment is not used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems.[/b]

The problem you have can be quite simple be descriped as a lack of impulse control, This can be easily taught to a dog but the first step is to stop reinforcing such behavior. Below are a number of links on how to go about solving the problem.

Lowering Arousal: How to Train Impulse Control

Any Dog Can Live Calmly in a House - Even Yours!

Keep Me Calm

Zen Down or Settle

Protocol for Relaxation

Appendix B /The Protocol

Settle Down and Shush

Guidelines for Teaching Self Control
May require registering but it is free

Solution for Doorbell Barking

Retraining Manic Alert Barking

Quick Fix for a Jumping Dog

other notes

Impulse control is basic to all other training any class that does not address this issue when a student is clearly having a problem is a clear sign it is time to find a different class. To many associate Positive reinforcement with Permissiveness when that is not the case.
SAY YES TRAINING REMINDERS
" POSITIVE does not equal PERMISSIVE. This is the guiding principle of Say Yes Dog Training. You must be consistent. If a behaviour is acceptable at home (example the dog choosing not to lie down when told) it is also acceptable during work. Approach training and home life with a patient disposition and a strict application of what is and isn’t acceptable. Training happens 24 hours a day 7 days a week; your dog is always learning regardless if you are actively training or not!"

Lack of exercise of results in decreased impulse controls. The ol adage a tired dog is a good dog is still true today

Managing Your Dog’s Behavior

Tug of War

Quote:

Dog owners have been admonished for decades to never play tug of war with their dogs because of the risk of it increasing aggression and/or dominance in the dog. Even many dog resource people such as breeders, trainers and veterinarians caution against this game. This is partly a failure to discriminate between agonistic behavior (conflict resolution & defensive aggression) and predatory behavior. Also, many people have issues about witnessing intensity. Intensity is not aggression, however.
Played with rules, tug-of-war is a tremendous predatory energy burner and good exercise for both dog and owner. It serves as a barometer of the kind of control you have over the dog, most importantly over his jaws. The game doesn't make the dog a predator: he already is one. The game is an outlet. It’s intense, increases dog focus and confidence and plugs into something very deep inside them. The big payoff is in lowered incidence of behavior problems due to understimulation...[/b]

Tieing a dog is one form a restaint that increases fustration levels and leads to a increased lack of impulse control. An overely large percentage of dog bites occured when the dog was tied. If you need such control crate confinement is a better alternative see;
Tying Dogs Out

other helpful links on the subject

Punishment: How not to do it

Jack Palance vs. Fred Astaire

zag300zx · 04-06-2009, 10:12 AM

Thanks for the responses, I agree that it may be too extreme a measure and that I simply need to go back to the basics and work more on establishing a solid foundation. I really need to work on her impulse control as stated above, and also limiting the reinforcement she usually gets from people when she jumps up, that will be a difficult one.

Mikey T · 04-06-2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

limiting the reinforcement she usually gets from people when she jumps up, that will be a difficult one.[/b]

The easiest way to do this is limit her axcess to people to jump up either via a leash/crate or isolation. Then you can retrain quests on an individual basis.

oliwa · 02-01-2010, 10:13 AM

This is an old post, but in a search I found an e-collar thread so I had to chime in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zag300zx

She did learn the tricks none the less.

It sounds like clicker training did work if she learned the tricks. It sounds like you wanted too much from her too soon (this is common).

Quote:

Originally Posted by zag300zx

as long as they are used correctly they seem to be pretty effective.

I have seen an e-collar's use justified in 1 case and it was because the dog's life was in danger (chased cars). The training was done by a professional, not a novice. Positive reinforcement training is a much better alternative...you don't risk injuring your dog, scaring your dog, making your dog aggressive, and you don't hurt the bond between you and your dog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shallhb

like teaching an alternative behavior like sit, asking for the sit in the presence of people, and straightforward corrections for failing to sit , using a training (chain) collar, leash and a sharp NO! if she fails to sit.

I agreed with you up to the point you recommended corrections. IMO, choke chains, prong collars, and e-collars used to train obedience or tricks is completely unnecessary. Why not use a method that has been proven to be more effective and has none of the negative side affects (ie. positive reinforcement)? If you have company over and the dog doesn't sit then ask your company to walk outside. Put the dog back into a sit, positively reward the behavior, and ask your company to come back in. If she gets up repeat over and over. She will learn if she breaks the sit (the unwanted behavior) causes the positive (people) to go away (punishment). This is referred to as negative punishment. What you're referring to (a sharp correction) is considered positive punishment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zag300zx

I really need to work on her impulse control as stated above, and also limiting the reinforcement she usually gets from people when she jumps up, that will be a difficult one.

Ask family or friends to help. Have them come through the door and leave it she gets too excited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey T

The easiest way to do this is limit her axcess to people to jump up either via a leash/crate or isolation. Then you can retrain quests on an individual basis.

I would disagree with using a crate because crates should never be used to punish. I have had to put Snickers in a timeout 1 time and she was in there for about 1 minute. A timeout is a very temporary measure after you have tried everything else. I think removing the people will be easier than removing the dog. Less stress for everybody.

buckshot · 02-01-2010, 01:09 PM

Here is a good article on e-collars.

E-collars early use and conditioning.

By Wally "LCK" Hendricks

http://www.huntingbassets.com/articles/ecollars.pdf

oliwa · 02-01-2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckshot

Here is a good article on e-collars.

E-collars early use and conditioning.

By Wally "LCK" Hendricks

http://www.huntingbassets.com/articles/ecollars.pdf

I am a stark advocate for positive reinforcement training as opposed to positive punishment training. I read the article you posted and will respond to the parts individually. I would be open to having a health discussion if you are an advocate for e-collars.

Quote:

The training collar itself will not ruin a dog if used properly.

The vast majority of people do not know how to apply aversives or corrections appropriately. Take a trip to Petsmart on a busy Saturday and that is clearly evident. I see owners yanking and yelling at their dog because the dog wants to sniff my dog or tries to grab a rawhide off the shelf. The dog doesn't know how to act and it's up to the owner to teach the dog proper behavior. If the owner just applies corrections the dog will never learn "proper" behavior.

Quote:

The use of the electronic training collar has enabled us to deliver an immediate correction which falls well within that less than one second window in which a dog can make an association or "learn".

As with any correction, timing is critical and most people have horrible timing. Even with positive reinforcement people's timing are horrible. Beginners say "sit", dog sits, they reach in their pocket to get a treat, break it in half, give it to the dog, and by then the dog has no idea the treat is for sitting. As least with positive reinforcement a bad trainer gives a dog an extra treat and not an inappropriate correction.

Quote:

Put the activated collar on the dog and either have him/her in a confined area or on a leash and starting at the lowest setting push the button.

And what if the dog was near a child? Or tree? Or was looking at you? The dog has likely learned whatever it was doing at that time elicited the shock.

Quote:

With the button being pushed and the dog receiving a "negative"
stimulation, call him to you. The very instant the dog starts to come your way let off of the button. If the dog stops and turns away from you push the button and repeat the command. If the dog turns towards you turn it off.

This goes back to my timing statement. Even with a clicker (a completely benign stimulus) I accidentally click inappropriately. A trainer runs the risk here of poisoning the "come" cue with a negative stimulus.

Quote:

This is a very relaxed and essentially non threatening way for a dog to learn.

How is this relaxed? Do what I say or get shocked? That sounds like a high stress condition to me. If my boss sat behind me and shocked me if I made a typo I'd be stressed...wouldn't you?

Quote:

If properly introduced to the collar in the first place very few if any dogs will associate the collar itself with the prickling sensation and will not become what is commonly referred to as becoming collar wise.

I disagree. What do you do when the dog doesn't "sit" or "come" without the collar on? The collar is not supposed to be worn all the time so at some point the collar has to come off. If the dog doesn't listen and doesn't receive a shock the dog likely just became "collar wise".

Quote:

Keep in mind that you are taking the dog through its basic obedience but again more importantly you are conditioning the dog to comply with the collars negative stimulation.

How would this trainer teach basic obedience if the e-collar comes later?

Quote:

The e-collar should be put on the dog who is in training EVERY time the dog is allowed out of the kennel and commands are going to be given.

I don't keep my dogs in a kennel and I need my dog to behave all the time...not just when the collar is on.

Consider the following instead...

Quote:

Shock Collar Risks

Despite advances in our understanding of dog behaviour and training, and the general move towards reward-based training techniques, some people still continue to recommend the use of punishment as the best method of training or dealing with behaviour problems. While shock collars can work to suppress behaviour, their use comes with unacceptable risks, and inevitably the underlying reasons for the problem behaviour are not dealt with. Even in experienced hands, it can be difficult to deliver shocks at the right moment and to predict the level of discomfort or pain experienced by a dog; in inexperienced hands the use of shock collars can often result in poorly timed intense electric shocks that induce fear and ongoing anxiety in the dog. Owners are often unaware of the high levels of pain that they may be causing their dog.
Aggression and Shock Collars

One of the most common behaviour problems encountered with dogs is that of aggression. In many cases, aggression is motivated by fear. When a dog is nervous or frightened, a natural behavioural strategy is to use aggression to get rid of the “threat”. Placing a shock collar on such a dog to stop it being aggressive can result in the dog becoming even more fearful of the situation, which can make the aggression more likely in the future. The use of a shock collar to try and stop aggressive behaviour can also suppress the warning signs displayed by a dog before it is aggressive, which can make the behaviour of the dog less predictable and more dangerous.

buckshot · 02-01-2010, 03:32 PM

You can hash out your arguments of e-collars and their use with the author.

I did't post the article to debate it as there will be some that do not agree with e-collars and their use and that is their prerogative -- Kinda like debates with the Animal Right Freaks, some are not worth wasting time debating. ....but there are some that do use e-collars or interested in using them so that is who it was shared for.

Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, what method do you use to break dogs of unwanted game, such as deer or fox? There are those that still run bassets in the field and nothing worse than a long deer race.............what method would you use for breaking bassets from running deer or unwanted game? Not an opinion of what method you think would work, but a proven method that works on breaking hounds from running offgame. I am always interested in new methods.

04-05-2009, 10:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
shallhb Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Francisco, Ca Posts: 1,348	I honestly don't think you want or need to use an e-collar. First, at 18 months, Libby is still barely out of her puppyhood. This overexhuberant behavior will probably fade some on its own as she matures. Second, there's the risk with any aversive the dog will associate the aversive with the stimulus in front of them, not the behavior--for example, becoming afraid of children or strangers because she was punished in their presence. This could lead to fearful behaviors, and that's not good. Sounds like she needs some training that goes beyond clicker training--like teaching an alternative behavior like sit, asking for the sit in the presence of people, and straightforward corrections for failing to sit , using a training (chain) collar, leash and a sharp NO! if she fails to sit. I'd look for a good dog training club in your area--not the Petco/Pet Club training classes--I'll bet they can help you correct the behavior pretty fast. __________________ Sharon Hall Grace (puppy in training) Bella, UD, VER, TD, RE, CGC Pearl,UD, TDX, RE, CGC (Waiting at the Bridge) Samantha, Theodore, CGC, Louella, Zeke and Arty, Bassets All; (All Waiting at the Bridge)

04-06-2009, 09:20 AM	#3 (permalink)
Soundtrack Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,581	While I think that they do have their place, I don't think it's warranted in this case. What's needed here is more training, more maturity (she's still immature), and better supervision/control of the dog. __________________ Rosie-Ch Soundtrack Cracklin' Rose CGN AGN RA Am RN TT Melody-Ch Soundtrack Unchained Melody TT Sailor-Ch Soundtrack Expedition Sailor RN TT Chili-Ch Soundtrack Spice Up Your Life Curry-Ch Soundtrack Canadian Brass Pepper-Ch Pennieslogon Living La Vida Loca CGN Vina-Ch Soundtrack Grand Illusion Leila-Ch Soundtrack Almost Paradise Deela-Ch Soundtrack Wink Of An Eye Hermione - Soundtrack Spellbound Eowyn - Soundtrack Rain Dance

02-01-2010, 01:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
buckshot Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Alabama Posts: 87	Here is a good article on e-collars. E-collars early use and conditioning. By Wally "LCK" Hendricks http://www.huntingbassets.com/articles/ecollars.pdf __________________ http://www.BassetsUnlimited.com - A Community Designed For The Basset Hound Enthusiast http://www.HuntingBassets.com - A site dedicated to hunting with Basset Hounds

02-01-2010, 03:32 PM	#10 (permalink)
buckshot Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Alabama Posts: 87	You can hash out your arguments of e-collars and their use with the author. I did't post the article to debate it as there will be some that do not agree with e-collars and their use and that is their prerogative -- Kinda like debates with the Animal Right Freaks, some are not worth wasting time debating. ....but there are some that do use e-collars or interested in using them so that is who it was shared for. Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, what method do you use to break dogs of unwanted game, such as deer or fox? There are those that still run bassets in the field and nothing worse than a long deer race.............what method would you use for breaking bassets from running deer or unwanted game? Not an opinion of what method you think would work, but a proven method that works on breaking hounds from running offgame. I am always interested in new methods. __________________ http://www.BassetsUnlimited.com - A Community Designed For The Basset Hound Enthusiast http://www.HuntingBassets.com - A site dedicated to hunting with Basset Hounds Last edited by buckshot; 02-01-2010 at 03:35 PM.

04-05-2009, 08:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
zag300zx Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 10	I have a 1.5 year old basset named "Libby". She is a very good dog most of the time, and doesn't have a mean bone in her. I've been having some trouble getting her to behave around other people, either when I take her outside, or people come over. Say someone comes over, the doorbell rings, dog gets excited but when she sees the person, she lets out this howl/whine/dying sound as she frantically tries to get as many pets as possible. Meanwhile she is jumping on them and chasing their feet. I usually put her in time out if she gets to that stage. Today I took her out to soccer with me. I had her tied up to a fence while I was playing. I look over and see a 2 year old kid walking over to her and she jumps up basically tackles the kid trying to lick him to death . Obviously the parent should never had let a kid go up to a strange dog unattended, but never the less I wasn't close enough to stop her. The kid was OK, just startled. Basically when she is around other dogs/people I have a very difficult time controlling her behavior. I have taken her to training classes (clicker) and the entire time she would whine because she only wanted to play with the other dogs. She did learn the tricks none the less. After that kid incident I did some research and picked up an electric training collar. So far I haven't had the heart to use it except on myself and while it doesn't feel good, its not painful. It also has a vibrate feature that I hope will be enough to control most behaviors. What do you guys think of using these? I know most people believe they are inhumane, but as long as they are used correctly they seem to be pretty effective. I am hoping that it will be just enough to deter the dog from jumping and going out of control. Thanks for your input here.

04-06-2009, 10:12 AM	#5 (permalink)
zag300zx Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 10	Thanks for the responses, I agree that it may be too extreme a measure and that I simply need to go back to the basics and work more on establishing a solid foundation. I really need to work on her impulse control as stated above, and also limiting the reinforcement she usually gets from people when she jumps up, that will be a difficult one.

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