Breeding Under The Table?

murraysmom · 05-13-2009, 09:55 AM

Link: http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/237507

Quote:

The three-member board gave little indication of its inclination to approve the kennel, which is licensed to hold up to 500 dogs but which Esch testified routinely houses no more than about 160 dogs, including 110 breeders.

"We pretty clearly state in our (zoning code) that we can deny your request if you're in violation of local zoning requirements," board member Bradford Duvall said. "And you have been in violation for five years, and on top of that, you were in violation with state laws for a year. I'm sure the state wasn't real happy about that."

Area residents did most of the grilling of Esch over his operating practices, including his earlier statements that he spreads the dog waste and runoff from ammonia-based cleaning solution on his fields. Residents cited threats to area well water and more than 400 children attending an elementary school adjacent to Esch's property, as well as the potential for diseases present in dog feces to spread.

When asked by township resident Julie Nettke, Esch said the state Department of Environmental Protection doesn't require him to calculate dog waste into his nutrient management plan. But Nettke said that by her calculations Esch has dumped 65 tons of dog waste on his 80-acre farm fields over the past six years, and dog waste carries 23 million fecal coliform bacteria per gram compared with only 300 per gram carried in hog waste.

"This is right against an elementary school," Nettke said. "We all drink the same well water. … The board has got to think we all drink this water."

Lancaster veterinarian Tom Gemmill said dog waste carries several parasites, including roundworms. Gemmill said roundworm infection blinds more than 1,000 children annually.

Three residents spoke in support of Esch's business, saying his kennel is well-maintained. Esch's neighbor, Benuel Beiler, said he never hears Esch's dogs bark — in sharp contrast to another neighbor, LouAnn Gmuca, who said at both meetings that she hears his dogs barking "at all hours of the night."

Another neighbor said area farmers should be supported by the local community.

"There is demand for dogs, in spite of what the media tells you," Esch's neighbor Menno Esch said. "Many are breeding dogs under the table because of this type of harassment that's here tonight. If you deny this kennel, you are opening the door for more kennels to operate under the table."

Betsy Iole · 05-13-2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

"There is demand for dogs, in spite of what the media tells you," Esch's neighbor Menno Esch said.[/b]

Huh? The media tells us there's no demand for dogs? I don't think so, or at least I'm not aware of it.

Quote:

"Many are breeding dogs under the table because of this type of harassment that's here tonight. If you deny this kennel, you are opening the door for more kennels to operate under the table."[/b]

I'd say that flouting regulations already in place is equivalent to "breeding under the table", whatever that means.

murraysmom · 05-14-2009, 08:34 AM

I've started to link to local articles covering the township hearings on puppymills because I think they give alot of insight into the way the Amish puppy millers view the issue.

If you've been reading the articles, you'll also see a consistent position that the puppy mill issue for them is a "support your local farmer" issue.

Elvismom · 05-14-2009, 10:55 PM

As long as they consider millers to be "area famers" it will a long, uphill battle. Although, I suppose if we could dispel that attitude that the remaining breeders would run better operations.

Soundtrack · 05-15-2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

As long as they consider millers to be "area famers" it will a long, uphill battle. Although, I suppose if we could dispel that attitude that the remaining breeders would run better operations.[/b]

But do the "area farmers" treat their other animals with the sort of neglect associated with these puppy mills? If so, there is a much deeper issue that really needs attending to.

It's one thing to "farm" dogs, that is to have a commercial breeding operation. It's quite another to have an operation where the dogs have inadequate housing, food and care.

And is the agenda of the puppymill fighters to make sure that the dogs are living in humane conditions, or simply to shut down all commercial breeders? Since I'm not there, I have no way of knowing, so I'm curious.

murraysmom · 05-15-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

And is the agenda of the puppymill fighters to make sure that the dogs are living in humane conditions, or simply to shut down all commercial breeders? Since I'm not there, I have no way of knowing, so I'm curious.[/b]

I can't speak for everyone fighting the puppymills in Lancaster County, but I feel that the general consensus is to drive the huge, horribly maintained mills out of this county. The new law that was passed last October requires expensive changes in order to comply: cages will have to be enlarged, dogs can't be left 24/7 in cages with no excersize, temperature controls will have to be provided, dogs will have to be seen by vets, etc. All of this costs, and the millers notoriously don't want to cut into their profits (case in point is the kennel I posted about last summer: the inspectores wanted the owners to provide flea treatment for their infested dogs; the owners found it more cost effective to pull 80 dogs out of their cages and kill them- this case helped to outrage public sentiment and helped the 2008 law to pass) Another article I posted a few monthe ago predicted up to 300 kennels going out of business this year due to the new law-who knows? (you can find both of these articles in the Basset Hound Politics archive)

That being said, we are fighting a culture war here, and nothing is happening quickly. I personally hope that the new laws will be enforced at the insistence of growing public outrage, and that daily life in the puppymills will improve for the dogs.

As far as how other animals are treated on Amish farms (and of course all mills are not run by Amish!); I would say that they practice good husbandry and clean operations: tourism is a huge industry here, and everyone marvels at the well-kept farm land and beautiful white barns. People are just beginning to realize what goes on inside those dark sweltering barns which house 300 dogs in filth and misery.

Soundtrack · 05-15-2009, 03:04 PM

I wonder why such a difference between the way they treat the dogs and their other livestock.

Rather than trying to drive them out of business, would it not be more productive to simply try to get them to run their dog operations with the same care and pride they do the rest of the farm?

murraysmom · 05-15-2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

I wonder why such a difference between the way they treat the dogs and their other livestock.

Rather than trying to drive them out of business, would it not be more productive to simply try to get them to run their dog operations with the same care and pride they do the rest of the farm?[/b]

These operations are run by Greed (some of these guys are said to be making in the hundred's of thousands of dollars yearly)and are set up with the belief that dogs can be housed like chickens. They don't want to comply with existing laws because it cuts into their profits, and they don't want to comply with the new laws for the same reason. And all the Stolzfuses, Esch's, Kings and Eby's control the officials in their districts and get passes on inspections. New public awareness due to education by the many anti-puppymill groups, and support by the media and Gov. Rendell are starting to change the culture, but it's a hard fought battle.

And as far as commercial kennels, here are a few personal thoughts:

I don't think it's possible for anyone to keep 500 dogs in limited space humanely-

(Murray is a product of Tait's Bassets , a commercial kennel in State College, Pa. - I think there was a conflict on this board regarding the owner, John Tait, before my time here.- John breeds alot of litters a year. He doesn't sell on the internet;you have to go there to get your puppy. His dogs are housed in a big barn with outside runs, they can hang out together and are socialized, they get great food, vet care, and the mom's are not over-bred. While he is indeed in it for the money and charges way too much for his dogs, and produces way too many puppies, and while I would not buy a puppy from a commercial kennel again , I will say his dogs are well-treated. Whatever your opinion on commercial breeders, I would say that he runs a humane operation. But he has around 30 dogs, not 500.)

As far as the overwhelming demand for puppies in this country and how to satisfy it, I don't have any answers. People seem to continue to want the cute puppy in the pet store who came from a puppymill instead of a rescue dog, or taking the time to find a reputable breeder.

Thanks for your thoughts and comments Miriam-

Elvismom · 05-16-2009, 07:12 PM

The breeders are trying to get maximum profit. It's all a numbers game and the poor dogs are their cash registers.

Why buy a bigger cage is you can breed a smaller dog and get more dogs per cage. Why waste money on medical care when you can just kill them if they stop breeding a litter size you consider profitable. Why worm/vaccinate/socialize the pups when you will ship them out at 6 weeks (or younger, if possible) and offer no real gaurentee on them.

I spent a summer in Amish country and was very taken by their way of life. But I think that the animals only get the level of care necessary to carry out their function. I suspect their larger animals - cows, pigs etc - are treated better because they enter the food chain and are more strictly regulated.

Consumers are so uneducated. Not entirely through their own fault but because we are so incredibly bombarded with messages in our daily life. I'll bet most people only know what Oprah had on mills - and they don't think the the beautiful website they found on the internet could possible be a mill. I recently read a post that left me dumbstruck on another board. A woman is planning on buying a dog from an internet site. The "breeder" assures her that all his animals are born spayed/neutered so she won't have to spend $$ on that. I originally thought "there's one born every minute" but in a discusiion about it someone suggested the the "breeder" is probably performing is own pediatric spay/neuters, thus saving a vet fee. And I be it might be legal in some states. Way too scary. And, yes, I'm trying t track down the "breeder".

aspen · 05-27-2009, 12:09 PM

One of the very sad things about puppy mills is that the thousands of "pets" they produce and send out into the public are seriously screwed up. These breeders don't care whether or not their sires and dams have good conformation, are healthy and have good personality traits. Then to make matters even worse, they don't socialize the puppies and they take them from their mothers before they should be weaned.
There's been so much talk out there about puppy mills, so most people know about them yet this doesn't seem to discourage them from buying "milled" puppies from pet stores. I don' think they have any clue how bad these places really are. If pet store owners would refuse to buy puppies from mills, this would stop. Unfortunately, $$$ is the only thing that matters to them. They can get their "stock" from mills at cheap wholesale prices then mark them up several hundred percent and make quite a tidy profit.
Anyone who considers buying a puppy from a pet store should see pics like this one first....

05-14-2009, 10:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
Elvismom Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: new mexico Posts: 1,196	As long as they consider millers to be "area famers" it will a long, uphill battle. Although, I suppose if we could dispel that attitude that the remaining breeders would run better operations. __________________ Chris Foodslave, chauffer & doorperson to Elvis, Georgia, Ginger & Maggie, Crissy & Dart

05-15-2009, 03:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
Soundtrack Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,335	I wonder why such a difference between the way they treat the dogs and their other livestock. Rather than trying to drive them out of business, would it not be more productive to simply try to get them to run their dog operations with the same care and pride they do the rest of the farm? __________________ Gabby-Soundtrack Sumthin' T'Talk About Can/Am RN CCGC TT Rosie-Ch Soundtrack Cracklin' Rose CGN AGN RA Am RN TT Melody-Ch Soundtrack Unchained Melody TT Sailor-Ch Soundtrack Expedition Sailor RN TT Chili-Ch Soundtrack Spice Up Your Life Curry-Ch Soundtrack Canadian Brass Pepper-Ch Pennieslogon Living La Vida Loca CGN Vina-Ch Soundtrack Grand Illusion Lenore-Ch Soundtrack Guilty Conscience Leila-Ch Soundtrack Almost Paradise Deela-Ch Soundtrack Wink Of An Eye

05-16-2009, 07:12 PM	#9 (permalink)
Elvismom Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: new mexico Posts: 1,196	The breeders are trying to get maximum profit. It's all a numbers game and the poor dogs are their cash registers. Why buy a bigger cage is you can breed a smaller dog and get more dogs per cage. Why waste money on medical care when you can just kill them if they stop breeding a litter size you consider profitable. Why worm/vaccinate/socialize the pups when you will ship them out at 6 weeks (or younger, if possible) and offer no real gaurentee on them. I spent a summer in Amish country and was very taken by their way of life. But I think that the animals only get the level of care necessary to carry out their function. I suspect their larger animals - cows, pigs etc - are treated better because they enter the food chain and are more strictly regulated. Consumers are so uneducated. Not entirely through their own fault but because we are so incredibly bombarded with messages in our daily life. I'll bet most people only know what Oprah had on mills - and they don't think the the beautiful website they found on the internet could possible be a mill. I recently read a post that left me dumbstruck on another board. A woman is planning on buying a dog from an internet site. The "breeder" assures her that all his animals are born spayed/neutered so she won't have to spend $$ on that. I originally thought "there's one born every minute" but in a discusiion about it someone suggested the the "breeder" is probably performing is own pediatric spay/neuters, thus saving a vet fee. And I be it might be legal in some states. Way too scary. And, yes, I'm trying t track down the "breeder". __________________ Chris Foodslave, chauffer & doorperson to Elvis, Georgia, Ginger & Maggie, Crissy & Dart

05-27-2009, 12:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
aspen Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: none Posts: 31	One of the very sad things about puppy mills is that the thousands of "pets" they produce and send out into the public are seriously screwed up. These breeders don't care whether or not their sires and dams have good conformation, are healthy and have good personality traits. Then to make matters even worse, they don't socialize the puppies and they take them from their mothers before they should be weaned. There's been so much talk out there about puppy mills, so most people know about them yet this doesn't seem to discourage them from buying "milled" puppies from pet stores. I don' think they have any clue how bad these places really are. If pet store owners would refuse to buy puppies from mills, this would stop. Unfortunately, $$$ is the only thing that matters to them. They can get their "stock" from mills at cheap wholesale prices then mark them up several hundred percent and make quite a tidy profit. Anyone who considers buying a puppy from a pet store should see pics like this one first.... Attached Thumbnails

05-13-2009, 09:55 AM	#1 (permalink)
murraysmom Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: southcentral Pa. Posts: 2,215	Link: http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/237507 Quote: The three-member board gave little indication of its inclination to approve the kennel, which is licensed to hold up to 500 dogs but which Esch testified routinely houses no more than about 160 dogs, including 110 breeders. "We pretty clearly state in our (zoning code) that we can deny your request if you're in violation of local zoning requirements," board member Bradford Duvall said. "And you have been in violation for five years, and on top of that, you were in violation with state laws for a year. I'm sure the state wasn't real happy about that." Area residents did most of the grilling of Esch over his operating practices, including his earlier statements that he spreads the dog waste and runoff from ammonia-based cleaning solution on his fields. Residents cited threats to area well water and more than 400 children attending an elementary school adjacent to Esch's property, as well as the potential for diseases present in dog feces to spread. When asked by township resident Julie Nettke, Esch said the state Department of Environmental Protection doesn't require him to calculate dog waste into his nutrient management plan. But Nettke said that by her calculations Esch has dumped 65 tons of dog waste on his 80-acre farm fields over the past six years, and dog waste carries 23 million fecal coliform bacteria per gram compared with only 300 per gram carried in hog waste. "This is right against an elementary school," Nettke said. "We all drink the same well water. … The board has got to think we all drink this water." Lancaster veterinarian Tom Gemmill said dog waste carries several parasites, including roundworms. Gemmill said roundworm infection blinds more than 1,000 children annually. Three residents spoke in support of Esch's business, saying his kennel is well-maintained. Esch's neighbor, Benuel Beiler, said he never hears Esch's dogs bark — in sharp contrast to another neighbor, LouAnn Gmuca, who said at both meetings that she hears his dogs barking "at all hours of the night." Another neighbor said area farmers should be supported by the local community. "There is demand for dogs, in spite of what the media tells you," Esch's neighbor Menno Esch said. "Many are breeding dogs under the table because of this type of harassment that's here tonight. If you deny this kennel, you are opening the door for more kennels to operate under the table."

05-14-2009, 08:34 AM	#3 (permalink)
murraysmom Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: southcentral Pa. Posts: 2,215	I've started to link to local articles covering the township hearings on puppymills because I think they give alot of insight into the way the Amish puppy millers view the issue. If you've been reading the articles, you'll also see a consistent position that the puppy mill issue for them is a "support your local farmer" issue.

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