FranksMum

'K Mikey - you have obviously read different articles to the ones I have, to say nothing of EXPERIENCE. And I am talking about rearing puppies, not having older/working dogs on a high protein food. Each to their own but for sure 32% protein didn't do much for Frankie ..... and I've never fed that high a level of food to those pups I reared, and never had the problems he had (much as again, some of it could have been in his bloodlines, and not in mine).

Further, my vet, who specialises in bone problems and did the full x-rays on my hound, was in full agreement with my thoughts on the subject.

Mikey T

tlaking about puppies if you found studies demean protein level they are old, Just sayin

Developmental Orthopedic Disease - Knuckling Over

[url=http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/hip-dysplasia-dogs/]Hip Dysplasia in Dogs Linked to Improper Diet[/url\

Large Breed Puppy Food
by scepticvet



Growth and skeletal development in Great Dane pups fed different levels of protein intake

Quote:

Seventeen Great Dane pups, 7 wk of age, were divided into three groups. During 18 wk each group received isoenergetic dry food (approximately 15 kJ metabolizable energy/g) containing 31.6, 23.1 or 14.6% protein on dry matter basis. No differences were found among the high (H-Pr), normal (N-Pr) and low protein (L-Pr) groups for the height at the shoulder. Significant differences were found between the H-Pr and L-Pr groups for body weight and plasma albumin and among all three groups for plasma urea. The differences in protein intake per se had no demonstrable consequences for calcium metabolism and skeletal development. A causative role for dietary protein in the development of osteochondrosis in dogs is unlikely.

Optimal feeding of large breed puppies

Jennifer Larsen DVM, MS
Resident, Small Animal Clinical Nutrition
Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital

School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis

Quote:

Many nutrients have been studied to determine which components of these diets cause problems. Over 30 years ago a significant amount of data was published that established a connection between improper nutrition and a variety of skeletal abnormalities in Great Danes, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondrosis dissecans and 'wobbler' syndrome. The experimental diets varied in protein, energy density, and minerals, and it was unclear which factor or combination thereof contributed to the developmental bone diseases observed in the initial studies (Hedhammar, et. al. 1974). The same group went on to investigate the individual dietary components and demonstrated that dietary protein level had no effect on the development of osteochondrosis (Nap, et. al, 1991). For some reason, dietary protein level continues to be incriminated by some owners, breeders, and veterinarians, despite the lack of supportive evidence. In contrast to protein, excessive calories and inappropriate amounts of calcium have both been shown to negatively influence optimal skeletal development in puppies. While overnutrition in adult dogs leads to obesity and can lead to serious health problems such as cardiorespiratory disease, we recognize other problems in puppies that result from the same practice of overfeeding. It is necessary to feed the puppy enough to allow for controlled growth, but it is equally important to avoid overfeeding. Many people believe that a round puppy is a happy healthy puppy. However, maximal growth is not optimal growth. Adult size is principally influenced by genetics; however, the time to reach adult size can and should be controlled by proper nutrition. Excess calories can predispose large breed puppies to developmental bone disease, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy (Dammrich, 1991). While any food has the potential to cause problems with skeletal development if overfed or supplemented, maximal growth in puppies is commonly occurs with feeding a highly palatable, high energy density growth diet. These types of diets are often overeaten if fed on a free choice basis, or simply too much is fed on a meal basis.

red added for emphysis.

Mikey T

Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs

Best puppy Foods

FranksMum

Repeated - "Each to their own but for sure 32% protein didn't do much for Frankie ..... and I've never fed that high a level of food to those pups I reared, and never had the problems he had (much as again, some of it could have been in his bloodlines, and not in mine)."

Frankie was not 'free fed', and neither have any of mine.

shakespeare

I wonder how much protein is vegetable protein with RC? Veg protein is in no way as good as animal protein - it doesn't have the essential amino acids. Sorry to be a plob but the protein source for development must be based on animal protein??? So if you see 32 percent protein - is this animal or a lot of veg protein? ? Just wondering? I feed mine a lot of animal protein - more than 32 percent.

__________________
The Highbury Hounds Tallulah, Isabel and Margot

snoopsmom

Hello, I have a 9 month old girl named Lucy Mae. She just had the surgery for angular limb deformity that was causing her pain and dislocation in her elbow joint. I was hesitant about doing the surgery but I didn't see her getting better, just worse. Here is a picture of her coming home from the hospital.

bubbad

Some breeders get carried away with calcium given to bitch and/or puppies which may cause problems.A friend of mine felt switching 6-8 week old puppies to an adult food would prevent pano what I saw were puppies much smaller than they should have been and when I got Esa put her on puppy food her growth was much better the co-breeder of the litter could not believe it was his dogs sister because she was big ,his was small. This is all possibly in the lines of the dog you have.What I have discovered ,and it isn't anything new,is that you have to be careful how you grow these dogs. If you are feeding too much,not enough,not the right food,giving vitamins,calcium,protein, all this,if a dog seems to be growing too fast put him on adult a bit earlier than usual,these are not simple dogs to grow because of the way they are built. Just my 2 cents.

3kbasset

@snoopsmom:

hoping for a speedy recovery for your little one.

we had 5 weeks cage rest and she has done wonderfully. soph's surgery was the mid to end of November.

this is a pic of how she looked post op. look familiar??? : - )

Attached Thumbnails

 

Mikey T

calcium supplementation with large breed puppies is a disaster waiting to happen

this is not clear cut though the evidence currently lean in favor of animal protein being superior but there are some factual mistakes in your argument. 1 it is possible to get a ten essential fatty acids a dogs need for plant sources alone that is not the case for cats which need 2 additional fatty acid one of which is taurine and only is available for meat based protein, Btw ti is highly heat sensitive as well and destroyed by the high temp use in making and pastuerizing dog food so it is added in affer heat processing.

Now with protein it is all about digestibility so say the food as 32 protein but only 55 digestiable protein where as another food has 25% protein but it is 90% digestable the lower protein food actual delivers to the dog more protein, An dog food manufacture are only requires and allowed to put on total protein values not digestable valuse so you are correct that simple going by the percentage on a bag can be very misleading,

In all studies animal protein is signifcantly more digestable than palnt based protein. However and this is a huge however., ther is a lot more to this, Grain and legume like soy have what are term antinuetrient, these are chemical that block the digestion it is these componds that limit plant based protein . So there you go if you want to espose the superiority of animal base protein however when this plant material is include with animal based protein its abosrption is signifcantly effected as well,. when we are talking Kibble specifically In order to be form it must contain a signicant about of stearch 15 minimium so in kibble your animal based protein digestability level are going to be effected because it is being fed with plant matter as well, It is not clear that in kibble that animal based protein is superior to plant based,.

To get the most protein from meat it is best to be fed seperately from plant material I would sugest feeding it first and plant materal 4 or more hours later,

snoopsmom

Thanks 3KBasset! Glad to hear that your little girl made it through the 5 weeks (and you did too!) It is only day 2 since the surgery, and Lucy Mae is already getting used to having the splint on her arm. It will be a challenge to keep her calm for 5 weeks, but it will be worth it to see her healthy and happy.