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Old 01-22-2013, 09:21 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey T View Post
Studies have shown conclusively and multiple times protein levels do not contribute to orthopeadic conditions in young and growing dogs nor does it contribute to renal failure in older dogs. As a matter of fact because older dogs are less efficient at using protein so they actual require more as they age to maintain muscle mass.


Protein while it has the same caloric content as carbs is virtually never used for energy and never stored as fat. Excess is excreted. It does not contribute to weight gain which is a big risk factor for developmental orthopeadic condition. Now most hi protein foods are High fat as well and Fat has twice the calories as carbs so while not a problem per say if weight and portions are not controlled it can lead to excessive weight and a problem.

For what its worth I only feed Higher protein foods n o less than 27% and even higher when participatiang in dog sports. Higher protein levels have been demonstrated to reduce the incident of soft tissue injuries in sled dogs when training, Significantly.
'K Mikey - you have obviously read different articles to the ones I have, to say nothing of EXPERIENCE. And I am talking about rearing puppies, not having older/working dogs on a high protein food. Each to their own but for sure 32% protein didn't do much for Frankie ..... and I've never fed that high a level of food to those pups I reared, and never had the problems he had (much as again, some of it could have been in his bloodlines, and not in mine).

Further, my vet, who specialises in bone problems and did the full x-rays on my hound, was in full agreement with my thoughts on the subject.

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Old 01-22-2013, 09:54 AM   #22 (permalink)
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tlaking about puppies if you found studies demean protein level they are old, Just sayin

Developmental Orthopedic Disease - Knuckling Over

[url=http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/hip-dysplasia-dogs/]Hip Dysplasia in Dogs Linked to Improper Diet[/url\
Quote:
Although there are many who still believe high protein can be a health problem for puppies, more recent studies tend to disagree.
The rapid growth which causes skeletal disorders (like hip dysplasia) in larger breeds is now believed to be more appropriately linked to genetics2 — and made worse by excessive dietary calcium3 or overfeeding during the puppy phase of life4.
For more in-depth information about this controversial subject (including references and footnotes), you may wish to visit our article, “Best Puppy Foods“.

Large Breed Puppy Food
by scepticvet
Quote:
Protein
Many breeders and pet owners, as well as some veterinarians believe too much protein can contribute to developmental skeletal disorders in large breed puppies, but this is incorrect. An early study [5] observed orthopedic problems in dogs fed diets high in calories, protein, and calcium, but subsequent studies clarified that protein is not a risk factor for any of these problems.[13]

...5. Hedhamer A, Wu F, Krook L, et al. Overnutrition and skeletal disease: an experimental study in growing Great Dane dogs. Cornell Vet. 1974;64(1; Suppl 5):59.

...13. Nap RC, Hazelwinkel HAW, Voorhout G, et al. Growth and skeletal development in Great Dane pups fed different levels of protein intake. J Nutr. 1991;121:S107-113.



Growth and skeletal development in Great Dane pups fed different levels of protein intake

Quote:
Seventeen Great Dane pups, 7 wk of age, were divided into three groups. During 18 wk each group received isoenergetic dry food (approximately 15 kJ metabolizable energy/g) containing 31.6, 23.1 or 14.6% protein on dry matter basis. No differences were found among the high (H-Pr), normal (N-Pr) and low protein (L-Pr) groups for the height at the shoulder. Significant differences were found between the H-Pr and L-Pr groups for body weight and plasma albumin and among all three groups for plasma urea. The differences in protein intake per se had no demonstrable consequences for calcium metabolism and skeletal development. A causative role for dietary protein in the development of osteochondrosis in dogs is unlikely.


Optimal feeding of large breed puppies
Jennifer Larsen DVM, MS
Resident, Small Animal Clinical Nutrition
Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital
School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis
Quote:

Many nutrients have been studied to determine which components of these diets cause problems. Over 30 years ago a significant amount of data was published that established a connection between improper nutrition and a variety of skeletal abnormalities in Great Danes, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondrosis dissecans and 'wobbler' syndrome. The experimental diets varied in protein, energy density, and minerals, and it was unclear which factor or combination thereof contributed to the developmental bone diseases observed in the initial studies (Hedhammar, et. al. 1974). The same group went on to investigate the individual dietary components and demonstrated that dietary protein level had no effect on the development of osteochondrosis (Nap, et. al, 1991). For some reason, dietary protein level continues to be incriminated by some owners, breeders, and veterinarians, despite the lack of supportive evidence.
In contrast to protein, excessive calories and inappropriate amounts of calcium have both been shown to negatively influence optimal skeletal development in puppies. While overnutrition in adult dogs leads to obesity and can lead to serious health problems such as cardiorespiratory disease, we recognize other problems in puppies that result from the same practice of overfeeding. It is necessary to feed the puppy enough to allow for controlled growth, but it is equally important to avoid overfeeding. Many people believe that a round puppy is a happy healthy puppy. However, maximal growth is not optimal growth. Adult size is principally influenced by genetics; however, the time
to reach adult size can and should be controlled by proper nutrition. Excess calories can predispose large breed puppies to developmental bone disease, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy (Dammrich, 1991).
While any food has the potential to cause problems with skeletal development if overfed or supplemented, maximal growth in puppies is commonly occurs with feeding a highly palatable, high energy density growth diet. These types of diets are often overeaten if fed on a free choice basis, or simply too much is fed on a meal basis.
red added for emphysis.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:39 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs
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Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value (Table 1).11 The dietary protein requirements of normal dogs decrease with age.

Best puppy Foods
Quote:
Doesn’t Higher Protein Content Cause
Hip and Joint Problems?


No, but overfeeding does.
Contrary to popular belief, hip dysplasia and skeletal diseases in dogs are not related to dietary protein2. They’re much more likely the result of genetics3, excessive dietary calcium4 or overfeeding during growth5.
Studies have clearly demonstrated the greatest risk of developing skeletal problems later in life is directly linked to overfeeding — allowing a puppy to eat all day on demand (free feeding).
To greatly decrease the risk of your dog suffering the ill effects of serious growth problems, avoid leaving your puppy’s food in the bowl all day long.
Serve measured amounts… on a regular schedule.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:17 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Repeated - "Each to their own but for sure 32% protein didn't do much for Frankie ..... and I've never fed that high a level of food to those pups I reared, and never had the problems he had (much as again, some of it could have been in his bloodlines, and not in mine)."

Frankie was not 'free fed', and neither have any of mine.

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Old 01-24-2013, 05:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I wonder how much protein is vegetable protein with RC? Veg protein is in no way as good as animal protein - it doesn't have the essential amino acids. Sorry to be a plob but the protein source for development must be based on animal protein??? So if you see 32 percent protein - is this animal or a lot of veg protein? ? Just wondering? I feed mine a lot of animal protein - more than 32 percent.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:24 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Hello, I have a 9 month old girl named Lucy Mae. She just had the surgery for angular limb deformity that was causing her pain and dislocation in her elbow joint. I was hesitant about doing the surgery but I didn't see her getting better, just worse. Here is a picture of her coming home from the hospital.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:26 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Some breeders get carried away with calcium given to bitch and/or puppies which may cause problems.A friend of mine felt switching 6-8 week old puppies to an adult food would prevent pano what I saw were puppies much smaller than they should have been and when I got Esa put her on puppy food her growth was much better the co-breeder of the litter could not believe it was his dogs sister because she was big ,his was small. This is all possibly in the lines of the dog you have.What I have discovered ,and it isn't anything new,is that you have to be careful how you grow these dogs. If you are feeding too much,not enough,not the right food,giving vitamins,calcium,protein, all this,if a dog seems to be growing too fast put him on adult a bit earlier than usual,these are not simple dogs to grow because of the way they are built. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:16 PM   #28 (permalink)
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@snoopsmom:

hoping for a speedy recovery for your little one.

we had 5 weeks cage rest and she has done wonderfully. soph's surgery was the mid to end of November.

this is a pic of how she looked post op. look familiar??? : - )
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:13 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
calcium given to bitch and/or puppies which may cause problems
calcium supplementation with large breed puppies is a disaster waiting to happen

Quote:
Veg protein is in no way as good as animal protein - it doesn't have the essential amino acids.
this is not clear cut though the evidence currently lean in favor of animal protein being superior but there are some factual mistakes in your argument. 1 it is possible to get a ten essential fatty acids a dogs need for plant sources alone that is not the case for cats which need 2 additional fatty acid one of which is taurine and only is available for meat based protein, Btw ti is highly heat sensitive as well and destroyed by the high temp use in making and pastuerizing dog food so it is added in affer heat processing.

Now with protein it is all about digestibility so say the food as 32 protein but only 55 digestiable protein where as another food has 25% protein but it is 90% digestable the lower protein food actual delivers to the dog more protein, An dog food manufacture are only requires and allowed to put on total protein values not digestable valuse so you are correct that simple going by the percentage on a bag can be very misleading,

In all studies animal protein is signifcantly more digestable than palnt based protein. However and this is a huge however., ther is a lot more to this, Grain and legume like soy have what are term antinuetrient, these are chemical that block the digestion it is these componds that limit plant based protein . So there you go if you want to espose the superiority of animal base protein however when this plant material is include with animal based protein its abosrption is signifcantly effected as well,. when we are talking Kibble specifically In order to be form it must contain a signicant about of stearch 15 minimium so in kibble your animal based protein digestability level are going to be effected because it is being fed with plant matter as well, It is not clear that in kibble that animal based protein is superior to plant based,.

To get the most protein from meat it is best to be fed seperately from plant material I would sugest feeding it first and plant materal 4 or more hours later,
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:27 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Thanks 3KBasset! Glad to hear that your little girl made it through the 5 weeks (and you did too!) It is only day 2 since the surgery, and Lucy Mae is already getting used to having the splint on her arm. It will be a challenge to keep her calm for 5 weeks, but it will be worth it to see her healthy and happy.
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