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Old 12-10-2012, 02:53 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Surgery or not

Magua is 11 mos old; he adopted us when he was four mos old. He weighed 20 lbs and we could count his ribs. He now weighs 62 lbs and happy and looks healthy. A month ago, he jumped off my daughter's bed, which he was not supposed to be on. Anyway, he limped for a couple of days and off to the vet we went, once ice and heat didn't seem to help. They took x-rays on both legs. The leg with the limp looked better than the one that wasn't hurting. After anti-inflammatory and pain pills. He has been fine. The vet called 4 x asking to send x-rays out. They sent them out, they have called back twice, and we have an appt in January 2, to look at Magua. They want to do surgery on both front legs to lengthen them due to bone incongruity. If this would fix the problem, I have will have it done. However, I keep reading that many times surgery is done that does not need to be done and doesn't always work. He is not limping and seems fine. When we first got Magua he would be lame some days, we would have him take it easy, he was fine, and he outgrew it. I do not know where we would go for a 2nd opinion, and they sent the x-rays out to a specialist. I do not want Magua to have unnecessary surgery. The last visit just to get x-rays, they gave him morphine and he was out until the next day. I will be the first to say, Magua is our first basset hound and I only know what I have read. But he is special. Has anyone else dealt with any thing like this? Thank you.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Have never dealt with this myself but if not in pain I wouldn't rush to surgery. Try to find an orthopedic vet or at least one very familiar with Bassets. Do you have any pics so maybe some of our resident experts can see the legs and give you an opinion.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:55 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I have also not dealt with this, and am NOT a breeder, but I am questioning the front leg surgery. If he is walking fine and doesn't seem to be in pain, then I would just let it be. Try to find a basset club or even maybe a local breeder that can look at him and give their opinion.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I would suggest trying to find a breeder (check the Basset Hound Club of America website) or a rescue to see if they can recommend a vet near you for a second opinion.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:44 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Elbow. joint iregularities are common and required in the breed if the dog is moving fine I would not even bother myself getting another opinion. The problem is most vetsw have no idea what to make of basset xrays and tend to find things that just are not there,
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Vets always want to straighten the front legs of a basset but my advice/suggestion would be, provided he's not in pain, to leave it alone! My boy suffered from premature closure of the growth plates (ulna, both sides) and was showing intermittent lameness (which had me going down the pano road - which it turned out it's not) up to the time x-ray was done at around 8 months of age. This condition has inevitably caused more bowing, and turnout of the front than I'd wanted, and has stopped my early plans to return to the ring with him, having come to the end of my own bloodline . He has been pain free and sound ever since however - and we did discuss surgery although it was suggested that at that age, he could need more than one lot as he grew, which we both felt was too much to be doing.

This happens, with Bassets, and may have been going to develop in any case, although in his case I don't think he was helped by the fact he was, before coming to us at 4 months, being reared on a food with a far higher protein level than I'd ever reared my Bassets on - too much, too fast! I took him right off that as soon as I realised what was going on.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:27 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
- too much, too fast!
it is very possible for a dog to grow to fast for its muscle and bone development and have that great orthopeadic condition in a dog. happen all the time in large and giant breed. but the problem is not protein level. but rather total caloric intake. ie being over weight and feeding to much.

1. Controlled scientific studies on puppies have ruled out excessive protein level as having any influence on developmental orthopeadic condition in dog,

2. when protein acumulate in a dogs blood, more than it can use it is excreted through the kidneys it is not stored or turned into a energy source like fat and carbs. So I high protein diet is much better at controling a dogs weight, which is highly implicated in orthopeadic problems.


Large breed puppy food
Quote:
By far the most important influence on the skeletal development of large breed puppies is total calories. Excess calories leads to more rapid growth and excess body weight, and these are associated with increased incidence of hip dysplasia, OCD, and elbow dysplasia.[4-8] Lower calorie diets do not reduce the ultimate stature a dog will achieve, but they reduce the rate of growth so that this size is achieved smoothly over the growth period rather than in a rapid burst.[9] This slower, more steady growth leads to fewer developmental orthopedic problems. he appropriate number of calories needed for optimal growth is different for every individual and depends on many factors. The best guideline for how much to feed is body condition. Several scoring systems are available (e.g. from Purina below), and puppies should be fed to an ideal condition (4/9 or 3/5).


Note: many Nutritional experts will say on the scale of 5 a large breed puppy should be a 2 not a 3 for the first year of development

[quote]Many breeders and pet owners, as well as some veterinarians believe too much protein can contribute to developmental skeletal disorders in large breed puppies, but this is incorrect. An early study [5] observed orthopedic problems in dogs fed diets high in calories, protein, and calcium, but subsequent studies clarified that protein is not a risk factor for any of these problems.[13][/url]

Growing Pains
Quote:

controlled research done in
1991 by Nap et al.,
2 showed that protein was uninvolved.
Great Dane puppies were fed identical diets except for the
protein content from weaning for 18 weeks. These diets had
a broad range of dietary protein compositions of 31.6%,
23.1% and 14.6%. This research demonstrated that skeletal
development problems were NOT related to variations of
the dietary protein content. Thus, protein in and of itself
does not effect bone development or influence the incidence
of developmental bone diseases.
2,3 (The low-protein diet did

have some problems keeping weight on the pups.)

...
However, research done by Hedhammer did find a
nutritional factor that does influence the incidence of certain
developmental bone diseases. This researcher investigated the
issue of dietary energy intake (how many calories a puppy ate
each day) by feeding either (1) as much as the puppy wanted to
eat [ad libitum] or (2) a restricted amount of food [66% of the
ad libitum amount]. This research was also done on Great
Dane puppies which were fed until the puppies were 60 weeks of
age (approximately 15 months old). He found that the puppies
fed as much as they wanted (ad libitum) had a significantly
higher incidence of skeletal abnormalities than those puppies
who were fed a restricted amount of food (meal fed).
4

Another researcher (Dammrich) in 1991 confirmed this
fact by doing research on Great Dane puppies fed ad libitum
or a restricted diet of 70-80% of the ad libitum fed puppies.
5

His research was done from weaning until 6 months of age. He
proved that puppies fed as much as they wanted had weaker
bone and inadequate support of the joint cartilage. Thus,
those puppies fed as much as they wanted had a significantly
higher frequency of developmental bone diseases.
5

Iams research has also shown that the number of dogs
showing the radiographic changes of osteochondrosis and
HOD increases as the number of calories consumed increases.
In other words, pups that get too many calories grow fast and
are more likely to have developmental bone problems.


it is calories not protein that is the big issue.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey T View Post
it is very possible for a dog to grow to fast for its muscle and bone development and have that great orthopeadic condition in a dog. happen all the time in large and giant breed. but the problem is not protein level. but rather total caloric intake. ie being over weight and feeding to much.

1. Controlled scientific studies on puppies have ruled out excessive protein level as having any influence on developmental orthopeadic condition in dog,



it is calories not protein that is the big issue.
However, the majority of high-protein foods are also high calorie, especially since they also tend to be higher in fat.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:49 PM   #9 (permalink)
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how nutritional dense a food is immaterial. It total depends on how much is eaten, and that comes down to how much ism put in the food bowl., It is why many nutritionist recommend that large and giant breed puppies be kept thin, ie skinny to the point that most people think your are starving the dog. Look at the studies dog fed 33% to 25% less than they would eat if free feed had substantial lower incidence of problems.

Last edited by Mikey T; 12-11-2012 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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we have just had surgery on one of sophies front legs due to differences in lengths of radius and ulna which caused joint incongruities and the elbow and below at her paw.

she had the deformity in both legs but surgery was recommended only for the one that was causing her pain and lameness.

the left leg, while slightly deformed does not cause her problems so the orthopedic surgeon decided to let it alone.

surgery has been great for her pain and mobility. we are lucky to be very near a university with an outstanding vet med college and orthopedic specialists.

Last edited by 3kbasset; 12-11-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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