miss_chris16

Hi there,

New to the forum and I'm having issues with my young male basset hound.

He will be 1 year old in a few weeks, and back in late June he developed a limp on his left front leg. Took him to the vet and he couldn't tell me what was wrong and did not do any x-rays.

I did some research as to what this may be and most obvious was Panostetis. So I thought wait a couple months and see if it gets any better.

It seemed to improve, he used to be very stiff in the AM or after waking up after naps and over a few months was not limping as severly, but still limping, still in the one front left leg. It never wandered to any other leg. As time went on he developed a bit of a crook in his leg. When he sits he holds it out infront of him and crooks his knee almost looking like "knuckling over" He runs and plays fine like it's not bothering him, but limped a bit more severly after resting after playtime.

Anyways, took him to a different vet today for other reasons, and I got her to look at his leg. She did an x-ray, one of his good leg and one of his bad leg to compare. She said his good leg is normal for a Basset, but his bad leg's Ulna bone showed up too short and wasn't jiving right together with his joint and radius bone. There was a gap between the two. She told me it was called Elbow Incongruity, and I either have the option to do surgery to lengthen his Ulna bone, or to leave it and deal with his arthrius with joint suppliments that will come in the joint as he grows older.

Came home and researched again elbow incongruity/elbow displaysa. Came across some articles about Bassets and that Pano and Elbow displaysa can quite commonly be mixed up. I don't want my little man having surgery for something that he could potentally outgrow?? I am phoning the vet tomorow to let her know about the articles that I have read and I want to 110% rule out that it is NOT pano and definatly elbow incongruity before we even think about surgery. I'm just not quite sure what the difference is between pano and elbow incongruity. If it is Pano, is there still gaps visible between the joint and Ulna bone? And how come if it is to do with his Elbow, his knee is the part that I'm visually seeing problems in? Also when he walks it's like he is double jointed in his knee in the one leg. It kind of kick backs if you can visulize. If anyone has had similar issue plz give some insight!!!!

Mikey T

Pano is abnormal growth in the long bones of the body Under xray the one with a problem will often come up mottlely looking but this only occurs during certain phases. Pano is self regulated that is once the dog is full mature it is resolve, there is known nown cause though genetics is highly sepectec and it is almost exclusive a problem with large and dgiant breed dogs. with males more likely to be affected than females. It is typlyfied by wanderling lameness that is it ussual start in one fore limb and resolves then another limb is effect and so on. So if the dog is in pain on the same limb for over amonth it is much less likely cause by pano. Also the pain pano cause is not in the joint so if the dog indicates pain at a joint it it not pano. Pano cause pain in the middle of the bone other than bone cancer there are not other conditions that do this so if you squeeze each of the three long bone on the fore limb he is limping on and if there is an indication of pano it is likely pano.

There is probably not a basset alive today without at least som elbow incongruity. and if the did not it likely had problems walking. The elbow inconruitly helps make the legs crooked which is necesary to get the feet unde the chest so the issue is not elbow inconcruety but how big it is. Yes the are some basset with enough angular limb deformity which requires surgery most do not so you need to seek out an orthopeadic specialist that has experience with bassets .

Tghe other thing to point out is not all joint pain is rrelated to bone it could be neither something like a soft tissue injury to A tendon or ligament. These are most often slower healing than a a proken bones and depending on blood flow some will never heal without surgical intervention so the issue need an experts opinion I would not take the advice of a GP vet in such cases and seek out the poinion of a specialist.

this probably will not help much but the refrecen below are from a orthopeadic text book
CANINE PANOSTEITIS
[quote]Canine panosteitis is a disease that affects only large or giant breeds, most often the German shepherd, although it has been reported in the bassett hound, Scottish terrier, Great Dane, St. Bernard, Doberman pinscher, German shorthaired pointer, Irish setter, Airedale, golden retriever, Labrador retriever, Samoyed, and miniature schnauzer.(1,4,9,10,12,14,17) Males are affected more commonly than females(1,5,10) (reported range 67%(6) to 84%(10)). The disease cycle in the long bones of males is more predictable and repeatable. The female usually has her first episode in association with her first estrus.(20)

The average age at presentation is 5 to 12 months,(4-6,10,22,24) although German shepherds have been documented to have the disease as young as 2 months of age and as old as 5 years.(4) In one study, 20% of the animals were 18 months old at initial presentation.(4) The initial presenting complaint is usually an acute onset of lameness persisting for 2 to 14 days(1,4,20) with no current history of trauma. The disease begins in the bones of the forelegs, with the ulna being affected most often (42%), followed by the radius (25%), humerus (14%), femur (11%), and tibia (8%). The severity of these attacks becomes reduced and the interval between successive episodes increased with advancing age.(22) The degree of lameness usually increases during the first few days of an attack, remaining unaffected by either rest or exercise.(5) Periods of lameness are often accompanied by anorexia and lethargy. There may be a spontaneous regression of signs within 3 to 4 days with or without therapy,(22,23) however, more commonly the lameness is noted to shift from one limb to another every 2 to 3 weeks,(2,9,23) with occasional lapses of one month between episodes.4 In general, the pattern is from front limb to hind limb to recur again in the forelimb.(20) Recurrence of the disease in a previously affected bone is seemingly rare;(2,22) however, in chronic cases the repeated occurrence of lesions can be found in the radius, followed by the ulna, with fewer repeats in the humerus and femur. The length of the cycle of disease is 90 days, but in some cases it extends to 160 to 190 days.(5,24) The interval between each skeletal cycle is 160 to 180 days. In one study, 53 of 100 dogs manifested multiple bone involvement, while 49 of 100 dogs showed multiple limb involvement on initial presentation.(4) As many as seven bones in various stages of disease have been observed to be affected during an episode in one dog. Clinical signs persist on an average of 2 to 9 months,(5,24) with the disease generally disappearing when the dog reaches 18 to 20 months of age.[/url]

Ununited Anconeal Process, Ununited Medial Coronoid Process, Ununited Medial Epicondyle, Patella Cubiti, and Sesamoidal Fragments of the Elbow

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16594537]Review of the literature: elbow incongruity in the dog.[url]

ELBOW INCONGRUITY ASSESSMENT & TREATMENT

Basically there is no published scientific evidence that an ulna
osteotomy is benefitial does not mean that it is not just that know one has done the studies

Mikey T

when tough was diagnosed with pano Wnet the ortho vet took xray he said he had an elbow inconcruity of 6 mm but he had seeh up to 12 mm not causing a prombel in the breed and did not believe that was the problem. When he squeeze the long pones of the effect leg every one of the Toughy indicated pain. However when he squezzed the long bones of the uneffexted legs he indicated pain as well Thouse that know toughy understand as ther was never a dog more protective of his body. In the end the evidence suggest pano and when ith move to anothe leg less than a month later repeating eah leg twice and some three times and relsoved it self just before he turned 19 month it was preety clear it was pano that wast the prblem.,

miss_chris16

Okay, I will be phoning around to see if I can get an appointment with orthepedic vet. What I dont understand about our vet visit today is why is his knee "buckling over" when he sits, and when he walks looks like he is a bit double jointed? Also looks larger and "swollen" compared to his other knee Is this part of his "elbow displasya"? Knee and elbow are two diff things so why is his knee doing this?

Mikey T

Just makeing sure you are talking hind end. that is a knee in humans is refered to as a stifle in dogs Another condition that basset and all dwarf breed are prone is to petellar Luxation. That is the knee cap move out of place when this happen it will allow the joint to move further than it should as the knee cap jop is to lock the joint from moving past a straight line. What usually happens is tt will pop in and out of place when it is out it can be painful but pops in place the dog usesit normally

luxating petella
again such things are grade as to severity some time surgery is not rewuired other times it is. I know of quite of few successful surgeries one in which a basset had both knees done and continued on in an agility career.

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I suspect they're actually talking about the "wrist" joint, it sounds like the dog might be knuckled over?

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miss_chris16

Will try and post a picture tomorrow of his legs so can get a better idea of what im talking about

miss_chris16

This is his "bad stance" that he does quite often, but sometimes he can stand normally where his legs look the similar. As u can see he puts all his weight on his "good" leg, and he will sit and knock his bad "knee" in and out of position. Like sometimes it will look like this then he shifts his weight and his "bad leg" goes straighter. Not completely straight though. Thoughts?? Is this what Elbow Incongruity looks like or is it something else like, Knuckling Over?

Mikey T

Mirriam is right again. little about dog anatomy . dogs basical walk on thier toes so the joint you intial referred to as a knee is actual the human equvilent of a wrtis ie carpus or carpal joint ie carpal tunnel syndrome. the next hoint up ix the elbow and it bend in the same direct as thehuma elbol and lastly the shoulder

Knuckling over is a disqualifing conformational fault it is though by the breed club to be geneic but I have nut seen any concrete evidence that is actual the case.

Other believe nutrion play a part ie to rappind a growth et again so superficial evidence that this may be the cas but not concrete

The wrist joint carpsus has no real physical skelital structure to prevent it from knuckling over that is where the joint bends as in your picture out over the feet and back instead fo being straight as demonstrated by the other leg. There is a school of though that an addition cause is ligament lacticity that is the ligaments are streach or are not strong enough to suport the weight of the dog this is where nutrion comes to play that is the dog grows to fast putting on to much weight for the rest of its body. Some swear that by wrapping and supporting the joint you can correct the proplem studies are very inconclusive with some showing wrap makes things worse not better. For the vast majority of dog knucking over is not a real problem but for some it can be but there is not very much tht can done about it there are no surgical fixes other than fusing wrist bones which cause a whole host of mobility issues. The carpsus is desiged to be quite flexible it absorbs and takes the brunt of the force from jumping and other similar activities. when the bones are fuse it function is greatly comprimised so it is reserves for only the most severe cases.

Like I said knu kly over general is not a pain causeing issue but keeping the dogs weight down is going to help out a lot that said if the elbow is pother the dog it may take a stane that allviates presure on the elbow while still maintaining supprt

The only further emphysis the need to see an orthopeadic specialist early rather than later.

Mikey T

elbow incongruities unless really sever and lead to angular limb deformity are not noticable with the naked eye. What is observerable is knuckling over.

WWORM on this form is knucked over and recently got a brace you may wish to talk to him on its effectivness for relieving pain and/or straighening out the problem.
see leg issues


cks@vetspecialists.co.uk

Quote:

ongenital These are fairly rare and involve dysostoses, ectrodactyly (longitudinal splitting of the limb), and radial agenesis. Chondrodystrophic breeds often have some accepted carpal valgus and radial bowing with external foot rotation.

fwiw basset are a Chondrodystrophic breeds and some bowing and external foot rotation are required to be conformational correct.