bassetmom26003

Wow, what a nice caring vet to send a detailed email, hopefully you will have some definitive answers soon and Flash on the mend. Take care......

__________________
"A basset is an asset" Kathy, Miss Annie Gotcha Day 4/27/11, and Angel Bentley ATB 3/1/11 gone but forever in my heart

houndmomma

I just got the call I’ve been waiting for all day. And…. She hasn’t received any of the reports back yet but wanted to check in to see how Flash was doing. I’m taking Flash in tomorrow so they can take more blood to check the liver count as she will have been on the antibiotic for a week by then. Please keep the prayers coming – As comforting as it is to have the great vets that I do – it’s unsettling when I can hear the worry come though in their voice.

Jen~

Wworm

Flash's Mom: my first disclaimer is that I am no vet.

But I'll share with you what I found based on what you've told us about Flash and also your vet's email. I wonder if they should consider an Actinomyces infection? i believe it causes pyogranulomas in dogs, both in the jaws and in the skin. as i read about it, there is a relationship to dental work (ie. the Actinomyces can be found in the mouths of dogs, and then they are spread to the bloodstream during dental procedures where the bacteria seed different parts of the body, thus causing these abscesses). and when I went back and read your first post, you mentioned that Flash had recently had dental surgery!

anyways, so I definitely wanted to pass this info along to you. Actinomyces is related to Mycobacterium, meaning that it is difficult to culture. I read that your vet actually needs to specifically ask to culture it because it is Anaerobic. (i'm not sure even if a regular anareobic culture is enough-- perhaps it has to be specific to Actinomyces) so if you think this is a possibility, I would definitely let your vet know so she can make sure the right test is ordered.

This link describes Actinomyces causing "lumpy jaw" in cattle. Perhaps "lumpy jaw" in basset?? sounds like the sooner it's treated the better the prognosis. This article says "The laboratory must specifically be instructed to culture for this anaerobic organism."
ACTINOMYCETES

Here's some info too:
Actinomyces sp. are gram-positive, acid-fast–negative filamentous bacteria that cause pyogranulomatous infections in dogs, cats, cattle, goats, swine, horses, foxes and human beings.5 These anaerobic or microaerophilic commensal organisms are found in the oral cavity of animals and humans.3 Cutaneous actinomycosis is the most common manifestation in dogs, especially in large breed male dogs, and Actinomyces viscosus is the most frequent isolate.3–5 These infections are usually secondary to perforating injuries caused by bite wounds or foreign bodies. In the most common forms of clinical disease in the dog, the cervicofacial, abdominal, and thoracic regions are involved.47 In humans, central nervous system (CNS) infection with Actinomyces is rare and usually results from extension of an adjacent focus or from hematogenous seeding from a distant site.7 Risk factors include dental caries or infections, recent tooth extraction, head trauma, gastrointestinal tract surgery, chronic otitis, mastoiditis or sinusitis, chronic osteomyelitis, tetralogy of Fallot, and Actinomyces infection of an intrauterine device.7 A cerebral abscess is the most common manifestation of human CNS actinomycosis. Other infrequent presentations are meningitis or meningoencephalitis, actinomycomas, subdural empyema, and epidural abscesses.7 There are two unconfirmed reports of Actinomyces causing CNS disease in animals: spinal meningitis in an Arctic fox and encephalitis associated with hydrocephalus in a dog.16 In both cases, the diagnosis of actinomycosis was assumed based on morphologic characteristics and staining properties of the bacteria on histologic examination. Culture of Actinomyces from the CNS and a definitive diagnosis has not been previously reported in domestic animals.

Anyways... just a thought, but definitely wanted to share it with you.

Please keep us posted and we are all thinking of Flash here.

Wworm

Found a few more things about it:

--Another interesting factoid about Actinomycosis: "Distribution - Occurrence is probably worldwide. A moderately common infection; seen most often in hunting dogs."

--Here is a conclusion from an article on Actinomycosis in humans:
"The diagnosis of actinomycosis is problematic because it is an uncommon infection and microbiological identification is often difficult and delayed. It should be considered when clinical presentation suggests malignant disease but there is no histological confirmation."

--Actually, I believe that looking for "sulfur granules" are one of the best ways to diagnose (need to look at tissue under microscope), since cultures can be low-yield (ie. infection may be there, but cultures are often negative, because of how difficult it is to culture). "Microscopic examination of the fluid draining from the sinuses shows the characteristic "sulfur Granules" (small yellow colored material in the fluid) produced by Actinomyces israelii."

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This is from a 2006 article in Scotland re: how difficult to obtain a culture of Actinomycosis in humans. I'm going to guess it's similarly difficult in dogs.
SMJ

Good news is if for some reason this is it, antibiotics are very helpful...

ps. remember the below is for humans, when they discuss the treatment

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Diagnosis is difficult and positive cultures are very difficult to obtain, with only a 10 to 20% recovery rate.6, 7 This is often due to the fastidious nature of the organism, lack of proper culture conditions, prior use of antibiotics and culture overgrowth from other organisms.6, 7

To increase the probability of a positive culture, certain requirements must be fulfilled. The organism should be cultured on brain-heart or blood agar in anaerobic conditions with a 5% CO2 atmosphere for 4 to 6 days.8 Even when these requirements are strictly followed, culture results are still poor.

As the diagnosis is difficult to make, surgery is an important tool in both treatment and diagnosis, although recurrence is high without concurrent antibiotic therapy. Oral penicillin, for at least 6 months, is the first line of treatment, with tetracycline as an alternative.

Wworm

Sorry to post so many times-- I guess I'm hoping it's this (then treatable by antibiotics) than histiocytosis....

"Samples were taken from both parts – back end was “fatty” the throat pocket was full of a pink puss – my vet was at a loss – never seen anything like it. She took blood and sent it out with the samples she was able to draw and we put her on antibiotics to hold her over the holiday weekend till the results got back. The next day it appeared that the one on the throat was larger so Saturday night I ran her over to the Veterinary Specialty Center in Buffalo Grove where she had been just a few weeks ago and where she had her back surgery – she also took samples – the back was still a fatty substance but now the pocket on her throat was no longer puss – but fatty. No one there had seen anything like this either. I told them the plan that was in place and the results we were waiting to get back – she just recommended that I get the planed scan and X-ray’s on Tuesday – she felt Flash would be fine until then. "

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Flash's Mom, it also occurs to me to wonder if in fact the lesions from Flash were "fatty" or if they were actually the "sulfur granules" characteristic of Actinomyces. The reason they are called "sulfur" is because of the yellow color, which I imagine could also look like fat. More info below from one of the links i gave you. Might ask the vet if they diagnosed the "fatty" substance by chemical means (to confirm it is actually fat), or if it was only by visual determination. If only visually, it is possible to mistake the "sulfur granules" for fat, I would think.


"The patient usually presents with a pus-draining lesion, so the pus will be the clinical material sent to the laboratory. This diagnosis can be made on the hospital floor. When the vial of pus is rotated, the yellow sulfur granules, characteristic of this organism, can be seen with the naked eye. These granules can also be seen by running sterile water over the gauze used to cover the lesion. The water washes away the purulent material leaving the golden granules on the gauze. This organism, which occurs worldwide, can be seen histologically as "sulfur granules" (figure 3 and 4) surrounded by polymorphonuclear cells (PMN) forming the purulent tissue reaction."

houndmomma

Thanks so much Wworm for all the information. I've printed out everyting to take with me today when I take Flash for more blood work. They want to check the liver count again since it's been a week today that she's been on the meds for it. I think her count was 870 something.

This is too funny and gave me a laugh I needed - the only hunting Flash ever has done is drag her sorry ass to the kitchen and turn on drool machine so I’ll give her something to turn it off.

Quote:

--Another interesting factoid about Actinomycosis: "Distribution - Occurrence is probably worldwide. A moderately common infection; seen most often in hunting dogs."

What we thought was really strange was that when I took her to the vet on Friday the back end was fatty (which they did send out for testing) but the neck pocket was pus – then the next night when I ran her over to the specialty clinic – the neck pocket had turned to fatty. The only thing I’m getting out of that is I missed when her back end enlarged because as I previously mentioned I was so busy watching to make sure she was still able to hold her head up that I didn’t pay attention to any other part of her body. And maybe because I was so busy watching her neck – I caught it as soon as it grew.

Quote:

Flash's Mom, it also occurs to me to wonder if in fact the lesions from Flash were "fatty" or if they were actually the "sulfur granules" characteristic of Actinomyces. The reason they are called "sulfur" is because of the yellow color, which I imagine could also look like fat. More info below from one of the links i gave you. Might ask the vet if they diagnosed the "fatty" substance by chemical means (to confirm it is actually fat), or if it was only by visual determination. If only visually, it is possible to mistake the "sulfur granules" for fat, I would think.

When I spoke with my vet last night she was going to be calling everywhere they have Flash’s samples to see what the delay is. And I guess the Ultrasound hasn’t even been uploaded due to the site being down – so she’ll be calling support about that also. I guess they’ve had a message on their site about technical issues – but enough is enough. Technology – gota love it.

Thanks so much for your prayers for Flash – I’m a big believer of the power of prayer.

Jen

Henley

Hello,

I have never posted before, but I wanted to reiterate bassetmom26003's post regarding milk thistle. After extremely high ALT levels, our vet put our 13yr old basset on Vetri-Liver Support Soft Chews, which contains milk thistle. Within two weeks his numbers were down significantly and continued to decrease and stabilize over the next ten months until we lost him to congestive heart failure. I know when it comes to health issues that all situations and circumstances vary for each animal, but I wanted to say that this is a product that worked wonders for our Pooh. I will be thinking about you and Flash. Here is a link to the specific product in case you want to research.

Vetri-Liver Support Soft Chews for Dog's Liver Function

bubbad

Thanks Flash's mom whats good for you is good for me.

houndmomma

OMG – Wworm – thanks so much – we still don’t know anything yet but while I’m waiting for my phone to ring, (like watching a pot to boil, never does) I’m researching everything I can and one of the thing you had listed said something about the nose.
On the right side, same side as the other two growths, she’s had what looks to the naked eye a scratch or dry skin. I remember even asking one of my vets about it when she was at the office (prior to all the current problems) they thought it was nothing and should go away and just keep an eye on it. Shortly after that all hell has broken loose with medical issues with both my hounds.
First Lucy with a growth by her eye, and pressure on her eye. It was almost in a closed state. As soon as we got that under control we’ve had all these issues with Flash and I’ve been so busy with everything else going on I didn’t put two and two together to think if it could be related. I just to an extreme close-up of her nose and send it to my vet. Because of the size of the image it might be blocked – I’m waiting to hear back if her server blocked it due to size and if so I’ll have to upload it to one of my sites for her to download. But I know they’re busy today so I’m not even sure when she’ll get a chance to see my email.

Henley, Thank you so much for caring about Flash enough to make your first posting. I’m aggressively looking into everything, thank you for the link. I’m so sorry to hear you lost your Pooh to heart failure – I also lost a cat to that about ten years ago – I feel your loss.


Thank you again for all your help and prayers for Flash.

Here is the extreme close-up of Flash’s nose – amazing what you can see with a close up that you can’t with the eye.

Attached Thumbnails

 

houndmomma

Appears my Vet has the same insomnia that I do – I just received her email and the report from the ultrasound.

Message from my Vet:

Text from the report:

Well, this is all I know for now – Tomorrow when I’m hopefully thinking clear this will all make a little more sense to me. I’m drained in every way.

I think one of the most difficult aspects of going through this is not know what to pray more for. To find out what the problem is so I can get it fixed. Or knowing when enough is enough. Right now she doesn’t appear to be in any pain, still likes to eat, still loves her treats & cookies and enjoys her little walks around the cul-de-sac. She can no longer go on her mile long walks but she’s walking so slow smelling everything within reach of her nose – which I think the walks might even take us longer now.

Jen~